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BLH
Advanced Member

5651 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2017 :  03:24:07 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I would second the power line communications issue.
If the Keypadlinc is the older power line only model. The command from the ISY994i has to be received by the KPL by power line.
Since a RemoteLinc 2 can control it. A Dual Band module is close enough to translate the Insteon RF command to the power lines and control it.

Though these tutorials are for X10 many of the tips can also be applied to Insteon power line commands.
http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm
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razemania
Average Member

81 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2017 :  10:26:20 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The thing is, I haven't changed anything - I don't even thing something new is plugged in. I'll re-look around.

quote:
Originally posted by Tfitzpatri8

That red exclamation tells you the ISY can't communicate with the device, but it doesn't tell you if it is a simple signal/noise problem or something more serious. Problems could be caused by other non-incandescent bulbs or appliances on either the PLM or module circuit, even the module load itself. What potential interference sources are connected to those circuits?

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razemania
Average Member

81 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2017 :  11:11:58 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It appears my Keypadlinc is dual-band - 2334-2 v.43 Keypad Linc.

quote:
Originally posted by razemania

The thing is, I haven't changed anything - I don't even thing something new is plugged in. I'll re-look around.

quote:
Originally posted by Tfitzpatri8

That red exclamation tells you the ISY can't communicate with the device, but it doesn't tell you if it is a simple signal/noise problem or something more serious. Problems could be caused by other non-incandescent bulbs or appliances on either the PLM or module circuit, even the module load itself. What potential interference sources are connected to those circuits?



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oberkc
Advanced Member

USA
3630 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2017 :  11:16:50 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by razemania

The thing is, I haven't changed anything - I don't even thing something new is plugged in. I'll re-look around



Maybe, but sometimes electronics wears out over time. Did you check tfitzpatri8 suggestion regarding electronics surronding the PLM? How old is your PLM?
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razemania
Average Member

81 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2017 :  11:27:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm moving the ISY and PLM around the house. I had to replace the PLM in November 2015 (Insteon 2413S PowerLinc Modem INSTEON Dual-Band Serial Interface), so it's not that old. I'm only having issues with 2 devices. Others work ok.

This Keypadlinc and an 2876SB Icon Relay Switch v. 39. I removed that from the ISY and I can't re-add it. (It had a red exclamation mark. The error re-adding is "Cannot determine Insteon Engine" It was working last week.

I appreciate all this help.

quote:
Originally posted by oberkc

quote:
Originally posted by razemania

The thing is, I haven't changed anything - I don't even thing something new is plugged in. I'll re-look around



Maybe, but sometimes electronics wears out over time. Did you check tfitzpatri8 suggestion regarding electronics surronding the PLM? How old is your PLM?

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Tfitzpatri8
Administrator

USA
10480 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2017 :  1:11:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The answer for problems communicating with the keypad may be different from the answer for the icon module. For that reason, it may be useful to concentrate on one at a time.

What is the load (type, number and size of bulbs) attached to the Load line on this keypad? If you put it into beacon test mode (use a flathead screwdriver to tap its set button four times, very quickly), the set button should start blinking. Do you see nearby dual-band modules blink in response and, if so, what color are those leds blinking?

(Tap its set button once more to exit beacon mode, or it will time out and stop automatically after about 4 minutes.)

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stusviews
Moderator

USA
15785 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2017 :  1:14:49 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Do you have a load connected to the problematic devices? If so, what are the loads?

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GregSCSA
Starting Member

USA
1 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2017 :  09:14:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
B2 - I agree with you on the quality of the devices. You CANNOT plan on replacing a ceiling fan module in a ceiling fan that is 15 feet up on the ceiling every 2 years!

To get more people to adopt these you need to have the quality that they will work this year, next year and onward. You expect your light switch to turn on your lights when you use it. You expect your faucet to work for at least 10 years and your roof to last at least 20 years.

I have only about 15 devices but had 4 out of 5 camera's die because of their power supply at the 2 year point. I had the original hub die about the same time. Insteon makes it difficult to WANT to invest in fan controllers and other items that would be expensive and difficult to replace every 2 years!

If they can get their quality nailed I think the company would be kicking butt right now and I would be opening my wallet a lot wider.
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silverton38
Senior Member

Canada
377 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2017 :  7:40:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Try restoring the device. I have fixed many devices by doing that.
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dgardella001
Starting Member

USA
1 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2017 :  5:40:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am going to agree with bburns. I have been using this ISY/Plm network at my home in Costa Rica for just about everything. Main Gate Openner. All the lights. Pool lights. A/C. Garage Doors. Scenes. Works great. I can open and close my gate from China to let me guards in or to let people into my house. For those who travel, it's a great way to keep control of your home. The learning curve has been a beach*. PLM replaced 3 times in 5 years. I live in an area with terrible lighting. I had to invest in Fiber Optics to get rid of building to building surges. The ISY has been replaced once. The ELK m1gold modem went bad. Switches replaced many times. The last incident on a very large network(I have over 140 Led Lights in my house) was connecting a GE Fridge at the Pool House. Suddenly my Main Gate would not respond. Took me 3 weeks to figure it out. I had to add additional controls at my Gym and at the Pool House to get the Gate (900 Feet from the ISY/PLM) to respond. PLM also went for some odd reason. I could not add devices anymore. Seemed to be caused by the power section of the PLM not working. Good thing it's a DUAL BAND network. In short, the technology is cheap. The concept is great and I can afford to invest time (I QUESTION THIS INTERNALLY) and money to get the system to be at 100%. When it works, it rocks. When it fails, it's miserable. But it is what it is. I would be willing to try another system, but the wiring of the 50+ devices at my house would not be fun. So thanks for sharing your experience bburns. I am glad I am not he only one that questions the quality. I don't even want to discuss how much money was put into this system.

Saludos from the Tropics!
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jtmoderate876
Junior Member

36 Posts

Posted - 12/23/2017 :  08:28:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
On the topic of longevity I suggest avoiding a hard factory-reset of Switches if possible.

I recently had my hub 2245-222 fail and had to relink and reprogram my whole house (they need a better plan there too - but I digress).

After factory resetting about 40 switches, 3 switchlinc never woke up and had to be replaced.

The symptoms were, after factory reset, their LED light would sort of flicker and they would make a buzz buzz sound, blink off and repeat.

No amount of further factory ressetting or other intervention would revive these.

Next time I have to replace the hub I will make sure I plan on losing a few switchlincs.
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Tfitzpatri8
Administrator

USA
10480 Posts

Posted - 12/23/2017 :  10:22:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just for reference, how old were those switches?

Volunteer Moderator & Home Automation Enthusiast
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jtmoderate876
Junior Member

36 Posts

Posted - 12/23/2017 :  10:53:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The failed switches were 3 - 4 year old switchlinc (1 dimmer and 2 switch). I'm pretty sure (but not positive) they were bought between Nov 2013 and June 2014.

I also have about 7 keypadlincs and none of them died in the factory reset - but that may not be statistically significant.
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Gordon Reddy
Starting Member

USA
9 Posts

Posted - 12/23/2017 :  1:09:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you're my age, mid 50ís, think of all the ďsolid stateĒ electronics that you stopped using after 20 or 30 years because it was truly obsolete, not because it destroyed itself with DC-failed-to-AC filtering or whatever the case is with these!

As for the smart switch today, if it were built with the same standards as consumer electronics in the 80ís, this thread would read more to the mechanical side of these modern devices, complaining that wear surfaces are too small and weak.

To say that these devices are failing so fast is because of their complexity is a solid attempt to mislead! These devices are completely fugacious because this is how everything is made today. Who will buy more smart switches? Is it the guy with a house full of failing insteon or the guy not so interested in HA?

The business managers and the engineers have become friends folks! The ever prevalent crap capacitor is their obsolescence timer.

If Insteon was really smart they would have made these things last 40% longer so that they could gain the majority of the market before they all start failing.

I must say I'm sad to learn the failure rate is as high as many of you are experiencing. Iím just $3000.00 into insteon and Iím hoping I purchased some lasting gear and not committing to a SUBSCRIPTION to which the rate has yet to be quoted!

Anything past a 10% failure in 10 years and I will be putting these things back in their warehouse with a C02 cannon.
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kdjerred
Junior Member

USA
42 Posts

Posted - 12/23/2017 :  1:22:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Keep in mind that if a hub fails, Smarthome can do a hub repair. Mine failed a couple of months ago and they offered to do a hub repair. It was a 10 day turnaround and When it arrived, I only had to power up and log in. Everything worked perfectly as before.
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DrMuney
Starting Member

USA
1 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2017 :  07:37:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by EVIL Teken

quote:
Originally posted by lilyoyo1


Personally Insteons warranty service is quite liberal (when you get through) Within the 1st 2 years, they will swap out your device. Of course, they will try to troubleshoot it first (but what company wouldnt? Ive seen them swap devices 3 to 4 years after the fact (exception not the rule). The problem is when customers are outside the warranty period. Many companies operate the same way. Under warranty they take care of you. Outside of the warranty and it becomes the exception when they do.

Teken: We all would love for any and everything we buy to last at least 10 years. Like you said though, we want to pay the lowest price possible.

No one bats an eye when their 1500 dollar tv fails 5-6 years in. They simply get another. one. Its more noticeable when its a device such as a switch simply because you have multiples which means multiple failures. We take the time to protect our tvs with expensive surge protectors and power conditioners but most dont invest in things to do protect their HA devices. (I know many zwave customers with the same complaints about different zwave brands). Taking the time to properly protect your investmwnt can go a long way to ensure enjoyment for many years.



While I agree to a certain extent some items in the home people just chock it off as *This is expected* short life expectancy whether it be XYZ electronic device. Having said this, its important to stress the point that since these devices are used on a daily basis they must in themselves offer robust design and component selection.

We all know the Home Automation field is finally starting to take off for the general public. Given Smartlabs is a single vendor maker it behooves them to push their product to excel in all areas of features, design, and service cycle life.

Given the market is wide open from X-10, Z-Wave, ZigBee, WiFi, BLE, Smartlabs can not drop the ball in pushing the reliability front. The public has no stomach for half baked products and also have too many choices which can supplant Insteon in a heartbeat.

The benefits and edge Insteon has over many of the other protocols is having a unified eco system that over all just works. You don't have to buy hundreds of dollars of Z-Wave / ZigBee products only to find out X vs Y doesn't offer even the most basic feature of instant status!

Never mind the sh^t show of variability between following so called standards which none of the Z-Wave / ZigBee seem to follow, implement, or completely.

Anyone who has read my rants, raves, and feedback knows I have no problem throwing Smartlabs / Insteon under the bus when warranted. But I have to say out of all the home automation protocols Insteon continues to lead in many of the basic to advanced features that just make sense and adds value to the end user.

From watching this company since 2007 they have continued to refine, release, and update their product line. From the humble Insteon protocol to dual band on most hardware. They have consistently released at least one new / modified product a year when compared to other market vendors.

They have offered some of the cheapest HUB controllers in the market which offer connections to some of the most wanted products and services with a extremely sexy and easy to use smart application which support Amazon Echo, Harmony, Stringify, Apple Watch, Apple Home Kit, etc.

With that said I see great room for improvement in the areas of security and energy monitoring / energy management. The Z-Wave camp has led in this area by offering true encryption in their latest Generation 5 chip set. Insteon in 2017 still doesn't offer anything in this area given the endless DDOS attacks, hacks, and other security risks that plaque the Interwebs.

Z-Wave also leads in the market in having multi vendors which support basic to some advanced energy monitoring in basic hardware from outlets to switches!

Yet, these two (basic) features still remain absent from the Insteon product line . . .

Security is not a nice to have in 2017 - Its expected and required in any of the so called IoT hardware we all use today. Given the slow but steady pace of, awareness, and adoption of energy monitoring / energy management Smartlabs must lead in this space. By this I don't mean just offering some random *Toy* that has no ability to adjust and compensate for line voltage which is the only method to offer true wattage / KWH accuracy.

In 2017 and moving forward Smartlabs must integrate high accuracy energy monitoring into all of their major product lines. Doing so will enable their product to be used in every day homes and help those who wish to lower and manage their energy consumption the ability to see hard cold stats and not have to guess.

Lastly, Smartabs / Insteon must start to formally support all types of loads!! There is no excuse to reference a dieing and band product which we call *Incandescent* light bulbs.

Again, the Z-Wave / ZigBee camp has several vendors who tout complete load support from ballast, magnetic, LED, CFL, Incandescent, etc.



"Security is not a nice to have in 2017 - Its expected and required in any of the so called IoT hardware we all use today"

THIS IS THE ONLY REASON WHY I CHOSE & BOUGHT INSTEON....Security....
Sensors and cameras set up to warn me if crackhead thieves try to break in to my house again...I don't even care if my lights get turned on or off....lol

So yes..longevity and strong communication is KEY AND EXPECTED!!
I need this system to work to insure my family and property are safe while I am away.

I have already had a 2245 hub burn up on me, in just over 2 years, now I am rebuilding again, and after reading this section of the forum...I am a little worried......did I pick the correct company? I thought I did because they have been around for so long...
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stusviews
Moderator

USA
15785 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2017 :  3:27:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Insteon is not designed nor meant to be a security system. A number of Insteon devices can be used to supplement a security system, but should never be used as a security system.

If you need a security system, then only a security system will do. At the very least, a security system needs to remain intact even if power is cut. All worthwhile security systems have that feature. Virtually all Insteon devices require line power. Even those that are battery powered need to link to a line powered device.

Insteon cameras are no different than any other IP camera. They have no Insteon features in particular. Insteon sensors are great for notification if and only if they can send a message. That means having the sending device (e.g., router) powered up 24/7.

A security system has a battery backup and thus has power 24/7.

In summary, you selected from among the best of home automation systems. But, home automation is primarily about convenience, comfort and energy savings, not about security.

I don't mean to be harsh, but if security is what you need, then you need a security system, not home automation.

Stu's Views is Education and Fun. What do YOU want to VIEW today?
MathLandia High school mathematics learning fun.
Both Stu's Views and MathLandia are free websites that do not sell anything.
Saving energy is not always free. Be a world saver.


Please don't PM with questions that can be asked in a forum.
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lilyoyo1
Average Member

195 Posts

Posted - 01/08/2018 :  11:19:36 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm with Stusviews on this one. If security is as important as you say then you should get a security system and have it monitored. Self monitoring is a recipe for disaster.
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