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sanders2222
Junior Member

USA
45 Posts

Posted - 10/10/2009 :  11:35:58 PM  Show Profile  Visit sanders2222's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I couldn’t find recent posts on this subject. Has anyone used an INSTEON I/O controller to turn a gas fireplace on and off? My fireplace currently has a standard rocker wall switch that closes the low voltage feed to the gas value, turning the fire on. How would you wire in an I/O unit so:
1. You could remotely turn the fire on and off and
2. INSTEON would report the status of the fire?
It would seem a wiring setup similar to the garage door monitor would work.

LeeG
Advanced Member

USA
2418 Posts

Posted - 10/11/2009 :  06:27:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It would be similar to garage door control wiring except the output relay would not be configured for Momentary mode. The gas valve circuit is mille-volt so good wiring connections are essential. My fire place rocker is a center off switch. Pressed up is manual on, center is off, and down is remote control. There is a pair of wires already connected to the rocker switch in support of an optional remote control. I use a manual thermostat on that optional device connection as the fire place produces more heat than wanted if run continuously. You could insert the I/O Linc relay in series with your existing rocker switch to add remote control. That would require the rocker switch to be on and the I/O Linc relay energized to have fire. If wired in parallel with the rocker switch, either the rocker switch or the I/O Linc could turn on the fireplace. However connected, be sure there is still a manual off switch in the circuit. Don’t want an accidental turn on of the I/O Linc relay to cause the fireplace to turn on when not home.

The I/O Linc relay status is probably queryable but that would only indicate if the relay is energized. It would not indicate if the fireplace was actually on. You would need some sort of heat sensing device, like that used to control the blower on a fireplace if so equipped, connected to the I/O Linc sensor, to provide a positive indication of the fireplace being on.

Lee G
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jpc
Average Member

USA
71 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2009 :  2:38:05 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Perhaps I misunderstood the OP, but I would assume a "standard rocker wall switch" to be a typical 110V wall switch; therefore, an Insteon relay switch would work as a replacement.
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stusviews
Moderator

USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2009 :  5:26:34 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jpc

Perhaps I misunderstood the OP, but I would assume a "standard rocker wall switch" to be a typical 110V wall switch; therefore, an Insteon relay switch would work as a replacement.


Most gas fireplaces use a simple on/off switch. A standard 110v switch will do this, 110v is not required.

A simple two-wire thermostat could be and sometimes is used. An I/O Linc, in latching mode, will work.

I use a thermostat and tackled Insteon control from the line (110v) end. If the Insteon device is off, the setting of the thermostat is ignored (fireplace won't turn on).

Adding a LampLinc and a dimmed low wattage bulb serves as a visual indicator that the thermostat has control.

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cruzan
Average Member

68 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2009 :  9:25:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

I did this with my gas fireplace, but the switch was connected to a low-voltage valve on the gas unit. Be careful - if you connect 110 V to a gas fireplace that is low voltage you will probably fry the gas valve unit. You will know this is the case if there is no 110V wiring coming into the gang box.

To make this work I had to run 110V (black, white, and ground) from a nearby gang box to power the Insteon switch. I hooked the load control leads on the Insteon relay switch to a 110V relay from Radio Shack- maybe $5 for that item. The Insteon switch sends power to the relay which closes the low volt circuit to run the fireplace. Fireplace fans were regular 110V, so no problem.

Hope that helps.
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stusviews
Moderator

USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2009 :  11:03:56 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The supply for the fan is the same supply for the low voltage. If you have the SwitchLinc Relay control that source, you would not need Radio Shack relay.

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cruzan
Average Member

68 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2009 :  08:00:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

It depends on the type of fireplace installation you have. For mine, turning on the fans does not turn on the gas valve - these are independent. The I/O link could also work, but the switchlinc/relay combo is a better solution if you are trying to maintain the original appearance with paddle switches.
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LeeG
Advanced Member

USA
2418 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2009 :  08:30:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My fireplace uses the small electric voltage generated by a thermocouple to energize the gas valve. No 120v supplying a low voltage AC transformer that is found on many gas furnaces and heat pumps. There are two types of thermostats. One that works with approx 24v AC found on many gas furnaces and heat pumps and one that works with a very small milivolt DC voltage generated by the thermocouple. The thermostats available from home improvement stores are well labeled as to which type thermostat it is. The contacts of the milivolt thermostat are made of a material that provide a more reliable operating circuit were very low voltage DC is used. Because my fireplace gas valve works from the current generated by the thermocouple it works even when main utility power is down. This makes for a very nice source of backup heat since utility power is not required to operate the fireplace.

These differences make Insteon control unique for each case. If a 120v to 24v AC transformer is used normal Insteon relay devices can be used to control the 120v AC source. If a mililolt DC configuration is involved only the newer Insteon relay devices that have both the relay common and NO contacts on separate wires can be used. On the older relay devices the common contact was connected internally to the 120v line and only a single load wire (red) was available for connection to the load. Starting with the in-line linc relay with sense, I think, and now being propagated to other Insteon relay devices is the configuration where the relay common contact has its own external wire (blue). For normal 120v AC environments this external wire is connected to the 120v line and the red load wire connected to the load. This new wiring configuration can be seen in the quick start guide for the in-line linc with sense revision v5.1+. There is a forum post that indicated this configuration was received on other than an in-line linc relay with sense device.

It is this new wiring construct where the common and NO relay contacts are on separate wires, isolated from the 120v line that is necessary to control a low volt DC circuit associated with some fireplaces. The alternative (as was previously posted) is to use another 120v relay external to the Insteon device that does not isolate the common relay contact on a separate wire, using the external relay contacts to control the DC circuit.

The OP situation describes a standard manual 120v rocker switch that is controlling the low voltage line to the gas valve. This configuration requires an isolated set of common and NO relay contacts that are not found on many of the Insteon relay devices currently in use. The I/O Linc has isolated relay contacts, the in-line linc with sense v5.1+ has isolated relay contacts, and perhaps other relay devices are being shipped with isolated relay contacts. If that configuration is not present, then an external 120v relay can provide the isolated relay contacts necessary to operate the low voltage DC circuit.

Lee G
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automagrt
Starting Member

2 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2010 :  09:53:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just found this thread through a search. What do I need in order to control my fireplace that uses a millivolt valve and switch? The In-LineLinc Relay?

Thanks!
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stusviews
Moderator

USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2010 :  10:14:01 AM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by automagrt

I just found this thread through a search. What do I need in order to control my fireplace that uses a millivolt valve and switch? The In-LineLinc Relay?

Thanks!


The easiest solution is an I/O Linc. The In-LineLinc Relay with sense is usually used to control 110v, but the relay contacts (blue, red) can be isolated if desired.

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LeeG
Advanced Member

USA
2418 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2010 :  10:27:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Stu has a good suggestion about the I/O Linc. The InLine Linc Relay and any of the other Relay based Insteon devices designed to switch 120V AC at higher currents are not good choice. New, they will likely work but a millivolt circuit with very small voltage and current should have a relay that is designed for lower voltage work. The contacts on these relays will not handle the higher voltage or current associated with switching 120V AC but tend to present a low resistance over time which a millivolt circuit requires. If you plan to add a thermostat be sure to use one that is specifically labeled for millivolt use for the same reason.

Lee G
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automagrt
Starting Member

2 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2010 :  11:49:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the response. So does the I/O linc plug into an outlet in order to control it? I couldn't tell by the picture. So would the wall switch connect in-line through the I/O linc and then to the control valve?

Thanks!
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stusviews
Moderator

USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2010 :  12:16:21 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yes, the I/O Linc (IOL) gets plugged in. The fireplace wall switch (which is NOT connected to the electric line) simply acts as a low voltage on/off switch. The relay built into the IOL takes the place of the fireplace wall switch. Those two wire connect to the NO and COM terminals on the IOL. Set the IOL to latching mode, turn the relay off, and then link it to your controller.

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LeeG
Advanced Member

USA
2418 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2010 :  12:16:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The I/O Linc is a plug in device. The low voltage connections to the output relay are small screw terminals on the bottom. If either the I/O Linc or the wall switch can turn on the logs, the I/O Linc relay is wired in parallel with the wall switch. If both the wall switch and the I/O Linc have to be on for the logs to turn on, the I/O Linc is wired in series with the wall switch.

Lee G
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dss
Senior Member

USA
321 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2010 :  2:24:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In my fireplace the gas control and electronics are under the firebox and there is a door in front that flips down to access it. There was also a 110v outlet underneath there to plug in the I/O link. The manual had a wiring diagram so you could see which wire you needed to patch into with the I/O link. I put mine in series with the wall switch so the wall switch becomes a master kill switch. But with this arrangement the wall switch needs to be in the on position for Insteon to be able to control it. Nice to be able to control it from a bedside Controlinc.
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Romeo Pericic
New Member

USA
21 Posts

Posted - 05/22/2014 :  12:44:05 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Guys, need some help. I want my wall switch to be the master switch, that is, it has to be on for insteon control. I need help on how to wire this. Currently I have the wall switch wires combined with the fireplace wires and then connected to the I/o linc's COM and N/O ports.

However, with this wiring - the switch and insteon work independent of each other - both can turn the fireplace on and off.

Thanks
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stusviews
Moderator

USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 05/22/2014 :  4:47:43 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
thermostat wire-->wall switch-->I/O Linc-->thermostat wire

The fireplace won't turn on unless both the wall switch and I/O Linc are on.

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Romeo Pericic
New Member

USA
21 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2014 :  03:39:33 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by stusviews

thermostat wire-->wall switch-->I/O Linc-->thermostat wire

The fireplace won't turn on unless both the wall switch and I/O Linc are on.



Damn, the only place I can plug my I/O is next to the thermostat wire in the fireplace itself. This means I would need to run another wire from the switch to the I/O linc, correct?

Thank you for your time.
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stusviews
Moderator

USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2014 :  12:50:19 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Don't you already have a pair of wires between the wall switch and the fireplace? If so, then all the wiring is in place. You only need to change the connections.

FROM:
fireplace--I/O Linc (C)---wall switch top screw
fireplace--I/O Linc (NO)--wall switch bottom screw

TO:
fireplace--I/O Linc (C)-(NO)--wall switch top screw
fireplace---------------------wall switch bottom screw

BTW, it doesn't matter which wire goes to the top or bottom screw.

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Romeo Pericic
New Member

USA
21 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2014 :  3:18:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Stu,
Just completed project as per your instructions - Awesome - works just the way I want it - both have to be on for fireplace to turn on!!!!
I admire all of you on this forum who devote your precious time to help others.
THANK YOU so much.
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DaSoss
Starting Member

USA
1 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2016 :  5:00:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Here is how to control a fireplace or insert that uses a Proflame GTMF fireplace controller with an Insteon 2450 IOLinc. I did this with a Napoleon IR-4 fireplace insert that has an electronic pilot and wireless remote control. Other fireplaces may differ. I had the help of a qualified technician. These instructions assume a Universal Devices ISY controller. If you are using an Insteon controller or no controller, refer to the instructions for the IOLinc and your controller. These instructions are sketchy because I assume that person performing them is qualified to install and maintain the fireplace. If you are not qualified to work on gas fireplaces, get help.
NOTE: Making these modifications may invalidate the warrantee on your fireplace. The author is not responsible for any damages that may obtain from attempting these modifications, either to the fireplace or any other property. Proceed at your own risk. It is strongly suggested that you make connections to the fireplace using the existing connectors, if it has them, so that the fireplace can be returned to the factory condition. Don’t do this if you are not confident in identifying the wires. If this is an existing installation, removing and reinstalling the fireplace to gain access to the wiring should be performed by a trained technician.
If you follow these instructions the Insteon system will “know” the on/off status of the fireplace and the remote control. However, the Proflame remote control and receiver will not react the changes that originate in the Insteon system. This can lead to unexpected behavior such as the remote showing the fireplace on when it is off or vice versa. Turning the fireplace off from the Insteon system will not turn off the fan or night-light if either is installed and turned on with the remote. Additionally, when the fireplace is turned on from Insteon after being turned off by Insteon, the flame height and back flame status will be the same as when it was turned off. In contrast, the remote always sets the flame to full at turn on.
If power to the IOLinc device is lost, it will not be possible to control the fireplace. The battery backup and the remote will not work. The attached diagram shows to install a bypass switch that disconnects the IOLinc so that the fireplace can operate from the battery backup. Alternately, install a pair of connectors in the 4-wire cable leading to the IOLinc. Locate the connectors on the cable so that they will accessible. Make up a shorting plug that can bypass IOLinc and tape it to the cable so it will not become lost.
OK here are the instruction:
Make the cable assembly and switch assembly.
Unplug the fireplace and turn off the gas.
Remove the access panel on the valve side of the fireplace to gain access to the wiring. You can also access the wiring by removing the valve assembly from inside the fireplace, but this requires removing the log set, inner trim, and the entire burner and pilot assembly.
Locate two sets of quick connect connectors branching from the receiver wiring harness. One wire should be green and the other white (two white wires may be connected to one of the connectors. One goes to the control board. The other white wire goes to the condensation switch). The wires from the receiver should connect to control inputs on the control board. Do not interfere with any wires that connect to the valve or pilot assembly. Separate these connectors. See figures 1 through 3 in
http://www.montigo.com/files/manuals/optional/Troubleshooting%20guide00%20(2)-Proflame.pdf
for schematics of the fireplace wiring. The wires you are looking for are labeled ON/OFF in the figures.
The receiver shorts the green wire coming from the receiver to the white wire to cause the controller board to turn the flame on. The wires coming from the receiver will be connected to the IOLinc sensor input. The IOLinc relay output terminals will be connected to control board. With the IOLinc output set to follow the sensor input, the receiver will still turn the flame on and off.
Connect the bypass switch to the IOLinc as shown in the diagram.
Connect the receiver output to the to the bypass switch assembly. Green to green (S) and white to white (GND).
Connect the IOLinc output (N/O and COM) to the valve controller. Red to green and white to white. When the relay is energized (status light is bright), the relay shorts the ON/OFF control input turning the flame on.
Rout the cable to the IOLinc .
Put the fireplace back together.
Plug in the IOLinc
Use the administrative console to add the IOLinc to the system. Let’s assume that you name it Fireplace.
Set the IOLinc options to Latching and click the Relay follows input check box.
Add the Fireplace-Relay device as a responder to scenes that you want to control the fireplace.
Add the Fireplace-Sensor device to scenes as a controller if you want the fireplace status to be reflected in the scene controllers when the fireplace is turned on or off by the Proflame remote control.
The on/off status of the fireplace will be reflected in the Fireplace-Relay. The status for the Proflame receiver flame on/off output will be reflected in the Fireplace-Sensor status. Use status statements in programs to check the relay status. Use control statements to check the status of the sensor input (the remote control receiver status).
Caution: The IOLinc devices may respond differently in scenes than other devices do. Using the ISY controller the IOLinc will perform as expected if the ON Level is set to 100% (ON). However, if the On Level is set to 0% (OFF), turning the scene on will turn the fireplace off; turning the scene OFF will turn the fireplace ON! Most other Insteon devices would turn their connected loads off.

David
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Flips256
New Member

USA
26 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2016 :  08:16:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by stusviews

Don't you already have a pair of wires between the wall switch and the fireplace? If so, then all the wiring is in place. You only need to change the connections.

FROM:
fireplace--I/O Linc (C)---wall switch top screw
fireplace--I/O Linc (NO)--wall switch bottom screw

TO:
fireplace--I/O Linc (C)-(NO)--wall switch top screw
fireplace---------------------wall switch bottom screw

BTW, it doesn't matter which wire goes to the top or bottom screw.



My 'switch' is actually a double switch - top toggle for fan blower, bottom for fireplace. I have installed the i/o linc in tandem with the switch wires and the fireplace wires. Fireplace turns on with Insteon or with switch. I'm trying to follow the directions above to have the switch be the Master switch...the wall switch has the red wire on the right bottom and the white wire on the left bottom. I've tried connecting them both to the same side but it doesn't do it and I don't think I can go to the top terminals as they are 110v - I only have 2 wires coming from fireplace and going to switch. I cut that, installed both to i/o linc. so, 2 wires to NO and 2 wires to COM. I am not getting how you bypass the i/o linc in the TO fireplace above...

Edited by - Flips256 on 12/14/2016 08:40:39 AM
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stusviews
Moderator

USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2016 :  11:44:26 AM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Flips256,

Provide more details about the switch.

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Flips256
New Member

USA
26 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2016 :  11:46:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by stusviews

Flips256,

Provide more details about the switch.



It's a regular double 110v wall toggle switch. Top switch is wired 110v to control the blower. Bottom is connected to the low voltage wires for the fireplace. red on one side, white on the other.
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stusviews
Moderator

USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2016 :  11:52:20 AM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
It seems that you wired the original switch and I/O Linc in parallel. The result is that if either the original switch is on or the I/O Linc is on, then the fireplace is on.

The only way to turn off the fireplace is to turn off both the original switch and the I/O Linc.

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Flips256
New Member

USA
26 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2016 :  11:55:06 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by stusviews

It seems that you wired the original switch and I/O Linc in parallel. The result is that if either the original switch is on or the I/O Linc is on, then the fireplace is on.

The only way to turn off the fireplace is to turn off both the original switch and the I/O Linc.



Is there a way to change that so the switch is a master?
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stusviews
Moderator

USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2016 :  12:01:03 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
No. The other choice is to wire the switch and I/O Linc in series. That way both switches need to be on the turn on the fireplace. If either one is turned off, then the fireplace is turned off.

So, if you leave the original switch on, then the I/O Linc has full control.

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Flips256
New Member

USA
26 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2016 :  12:02:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by stusviews

No. The other choice is to wire the switch and I/O Linc in series. That way both switches need to be on the turn on the fireplace. If either one is turned off, then the fireplace is turned off.

So, if you leave the original switch on, then the I/O Linc has full control.



Right, that's exactly what I want but I can't figure out how to do it.
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stusviews
Moderator

USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2016 :  12:06:34 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
fireplace---original switch---I/O Linc---fireplace

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Flips256
New Member

USA
26 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2016 :  12:57:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by stusviews

fireplace---original switch---I/O Linc---fireplace



So I'd need to run another set of wire from the switch instead of splicing it the way I did?
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stusviews
Moderator

USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2016 :  1:44:41 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Nope. You only need to change the connections.

From this:
from Fireplace switch wire 1-----I/0 Linc COM----to Fireplace switch wire 1
from Fireplace switch wire 2-----I/O Linc NO-----to Fireplace switch wire 2

to this:

from Fireplace switch wire 1---I/O Linc COM
to Fireplace switch wire 1---I/O Linc NO
leave the other Fireplace switch wire intact.

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Edited by - stusviews on 12/14/2016 1:48:01 PM
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