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tomorrowark
Starting Member

3 Posts

Posted - 09/01/2011 :  9:30:20 PM  Show Profile  Visit tomorrowark's Homepage  Reply with Quote
At my home, the most used lamps are CFLs(Compact Fluorescent Lamp). It usually cost around $5. The ad said thelamps have long service lift and them are energy saving.

I am not sure about energy saving. How can I check this?

But one thing I am sure is that they are not really have long service life.Usually less than one year, I would need to replace them.

So I am wondering whether I should try some LED lights. Do they really saving money?

<b>Find a best way to save money</b>

stusviews
Moderator

USA
11461 Posts

Posted - 09/01/2011 :  10:25:24 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Saving energy and saving money are not always the same thing. In fact, it usually costs more for things that save energy, for example, it's more expensive to design a more fuel efficient car.

A goal is to save money in the long run. The energy savings is real and nearly always happens. Sometimes money is not saved, as in the case you and others - myself included - experienced, premature CFL burnouts.

But the technology is getting better. LEDs are slowly becoming less expensive and CFLs are improving, too.

Do you use dimmables? Those lamps burn out quickest. I've never had a non-dimmable CFL burn out.

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jdale
Advanced Member

USA
1171 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2011 :  06:01:57 AM  Show Profile  Visit jdale's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I've had non-dimmable CFLs burn out. And others just got dim enough I replaced them, even though technically they still worked.

The LED lights I have (dimmable) are still working, but haven't been around long enough to know how long they will really last. If they really last 5-10 years they'll be worth it just for saving the trouble of replacing them all the time.

Insteon FAQ: http://goo.gl/qNTNr
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tomorrowark
Starting Member

3 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2011 :  8:09:26 PM  Show Profile  Visit tomorrowark's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I have non-dimmable CFLs and dimmable CFLs, it seems that the dimmable CFLs are easier burnout in comparison with non-dimmable CFLs
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easytim
Junior Member

45 Posts

Posted - 09/11/2011 :  12:21:16 PM  Show Profile  Visit easytim's Homepage  Reply with Quote
LED lighting will save you 80% on your electric bill.

Home Depot had a great 65w LED downlight for $35.00 it only uses 10.5 watts

http://www.led-guy.com This is an information only web site about LEDs - I'm sharing some ideas here

Edited by - easytim on 09/11/2011 10:55:35 PM
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ethan7557
Starting Member

2 Posts

Posted - 12/01/2011 :  10:53:58 PM  Show Profile  Visit ethan7557's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Actually, LED lights do save money, and they do so in a number of different ways. However, some people are reluctant to go out on a limb and spend the additional money to buy them. While it is true that the initial cost of replacing standard lights with LEDs is a bit high, the long term savings will always more than make up for the extra initial expenditure. most LED light bulbs are rated at 50,000 to 100,000 hours! This means that an LED light bulb could be left on continuously for more than a decade before dimming!

Edited by - ethan7557 on 12/01/2011 10:54:36 PM
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Geo
Advanced Member

Canada
586 Posts

Posted - 12/04/2011 :  1:17:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't think there is a simple answer to this and the jury will be out for some time to come yet.
1.

GJN
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Geo
Advanced Member

Canada
586 Posts

Posted - 12/04/2011 :  1:43:22 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry, I hit the wrong key.
I don't think there is a simple answer to this and the jury will be out for some time to come. A few considerations come into play:
1. It's very much a political issue which began in Germany. Engineers had to take second seat to politicians and their election platforms.
2. CFL do take less current, new ones even have pleasant light color.
3. They work best when turned on for a long time. I have several such CFLs lasting 4 years by now. Others died in a year or less. But then I have places where I need to turn the light on for just a few seconds or minutes at a time. An incandescent light is definitely a better choice.
4. Their overall energy saving leaves a few questions unanswered. First, their manufacturing is fairly energy intensive. Are we really saving energy, when we shift their manufacturing to China? Second, it doesn't take into account the environment in which they are used. Incandescent lamps develop heat, which is a bad thing if you live in San Diego. Here in Canada or most of Europe we need airconditioning just a few days a year. So the heat otherwise generated by the lamps, supplementing the normal heat, needs to be provided by the heating system. Nobody seems to be taking this into account when calculating energy "savings".
5. CFLs have very poor power factor which causes I2R losses. The new smart meters calculate the actual energy usage regardless of the the power factor, which diminishes the percieved energy saving. While manufacturers of electronics and especially plug-in transformers and power supplies have been forced to implement PFC (power factor correction), manufacturers of CFLs haven't, because of its impact on their size and cost. But with the millions of CFLs in usage, I can see it coming.
6. Nobody took a serious look at the environmental impact caused by all those additional electronic parts and mercury in garbage dumps.

It appears that LEDs may be better in all respects, but they still have their teething pains.

GJN
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daza87
Starting Member

1 Posts

Posted - 01/09/2012 :  02:34:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I can go on my personal experience with LED's as I have changed a vast majority of lights in my house to LED and I have seen the price of my electricity bill come down so they do seem to help.

http://www.ecoledlight.co.uk/led-downlights.asp
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IDGS
Starting Member

Belgium
1 Posts

Posted - 01/09/2012 :  12:21:13 PM  Show Profile  Visit IDGS's Homepage  Reply with Quote
We did the test and LED bulbs use 63% less energy

IDGS your partner in domotics
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firstone
Average Member

83 Posts

Posted - 01/09/2012 :  1:46:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is kind of OT but I've had negative experience with LED lights this part weekend. Bought 2 lights from costco to install into garage door opener. Seemed to work but when on, they would interfere with RF and the remote door opener stopped functioning. And, BTW, CFL lights will not even turn on in the same opener. It's amazing how these new high-tech solutions aren't designed to work with anything but basic setups.
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BLH
Advanced Member

4470 Posts

Posted - 01/09/2012 :  4:19:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
firstone, Sounds like the opener maybe using a triac to turn the Lights On and Off and anything but incandescent bulbs don't like it.
Maybe ones designed for dimmers would work better.

I am testing a Philips EnduraLED Bulb that is dimable. Though strange looking. Has yellow plastic side covers that glow bright white. When the very bright Blue LEDs inside of it excite them.

Edited by - BLH on 01/09/2012 4:22:39 PM
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firstone
Average Member

83 Posts

Posted - 01/09/2012 :  4:54:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
While I can see how it's the case with CFL, I don't see how triacs create an RF interference in LED case. But I'll admit - I don't know too much about things like that.
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stusviews
Moderator

USA
11461 Posts

Posted - 01/09/2012 :  5:15:13 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Which particular opener are you having difficulty with?

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ptnjust007
Starting Member

USA
1 Posts

Posted - 01/09/2012 :  7:47:56 PM  Show Profile  Visit ptnjust007's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I choose LED
but you'd better purchase the LED bulbs with brands or from big marts, like walmart
some LED bulbs are made in poor quality, they even don't light one year

Keep Positive
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firstone
Average Member

83 Posts

Posted - 01/09/2012 :  8:40:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by stusviews

Which particular opener are you having difficulty with?



The make is Craftsman. Don't have a model but I can grab a ladder and look it up. Don't see how it makes a difference. Either it works or it doesn't. I've verified that it's the LED bulbs being on that cause interference. I can operate it when it's off but once it turns on, it stops responding.
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stusviews
Moderator

USA
11461 Posts

Posted - 01/09/2012 :  8:51:04 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
1. It's possible that a properly placed filter may work.
2. It's possible that a different brand bulb would work.
3. It's possible that nothing will work.

No details, no conclusions.

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firstone
Average Member

83 Posts

Posted - 01/23/2012 :  3:17:57 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just a little update. I've replaced the costco lights (which were produced by American Lighting or some such) with Philips AmbientLED bulbs and those work fine. I guess the issue was due to close proximity of the LED electronics to the garage opener antenna wire. Either way, glad it works now.
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ScottAvery
Average Member

71 Posts

Posted - 03/28/2012 :  10:07:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I thought flashing LED lights was bad. It certainly is for CFLs. Perhaps you would be better off with lower power incandescents in the garage door opener.
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Geo
Advanced Member

Canada
586 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2012 :  3:24:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
All LED lamps have internal switching regulators running at hundreds of kilohertz. One thing is to filter their conducted emissions, which is the garbage thay put on power lines. They should be reasonably clean to obtain certification. But they also generate radiated emissions with spectrum going to hundreds of megahertz. The only way to limit that is by shielding and that is expensive. Once again, they provide sufficient shielding to meet certification, but there is still some leakage. When you place those bulbs close to the garage opener receiver, which is a superregenerative type receiver with sensitivity in microvolts, the leakage just swamps it. A solution to it is not within your capability.
Since the door openers keep the lights on fur just a few minutes, using 40W bulbs is as inexpensive (including energy) as you'll ever get.
I like LEDs - they turn on instantly and have very pleasing color. However, at the moment they sell for between $40 to $70 a piece. Considering incandescent bulbs cost around $0.80, I can't imagine a payback any time soon.

GJN
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photoret
Junior Member

Canada
32 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2012 :  8:59:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes LED lights really do save money! True story its happening to me.

In my neck of the woods (westcoast) price of the LED lamps are dropping. Our local electrical utility is also on-board with additional rebate incentives. I recently purchased at our local big box whareshouse store a PAR30 LED lamp rated at 11W to replace an existing PAR30-65W incandesent lamp. The price I paid for the LED is $14.99 +tax (this includes the utilities instant rebate). Now at a utility cost of $0.10 per kWh the equivalent payback period is less than 1 year for an estimated 8hrs per day usage. I've installed 4 of these new LEDs- no issues with my existing Insteon installation.

The fact that these LED lamps are rated for 40,000 hours is gravy!

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Geo
Advanced Member

Canada
586 Posts

Posted - 04/11/2012 :  3:10:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have no doubt the solid state lamps are in our future, but they still have a long way to go. The fact they're already worth buying in California is a good sign. I see two problems with the current breed that have to be addressed.
One is their manufacturing. I opened one of those puppies and couldn't believe the amount of manual labor that was required for their assembly. Single sided boards, thru-hole components and lots of hand soldering. What that means is that the 40,000 hours life is mostly an illusion. If those Chinese assemblers under the gun to produce quickly, paid literally peanuts, don't do a perfect soldering/assembly job, the life expectancy will continue to be a crap shoot, nowhere close to the theoretical life. (In this the CFLs are the same story).
The other one is the ecological impact - we ignore their total carbon footprint, because we shifted the great part caused by manufacturing to China. There's more energy and material used to make all those bits and pieces making up a LED bulb than would go into an incandescent bulb.
The answer to both issues is improved technology, integrating the electronics as much as possible in tiny SMT packages and eliminatintg human factor. It can be done and it is being done. With their growing sales there will be more money for R&D and eventual automation.

GJN
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Maria Taylor
Starting Member

USA
4 Posts

Posted - 05/17/2012 :  7:36:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In the same power, LED lights are brighter than ordinary energy-saving lamps. LED lights work for about 50,000 hours while ordinary energy-saving lamps work for about 5,000 hours. Under the same conditions, 10 fluorescent lamps are needed. So I think LED lights will save more both energy and money than ordinary fluorescent lamps though I didn't count it.

No matter how sad you may be, believe that happiness is waiting.
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dave w
Junior Member

USA
30 Posts

Posted - 07/02/2012 :  08:52:25 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Do all of these long life predictions for LEDs take in to account that the flourescent material used to create white light from the UV - LED, will age and dim down exactly like our current flourescents do? I doubt it. I suspect at 50,000 hours a LED bulb won't even put out enough white light to be seen in a dark room.

This aftershave makes me look fat.

Edited by - dave w on 07/02/2012 08:56:06 AM
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BLH
Advanced Member

4470 Posts

Posted - 07/02/2012 :  10:52:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If the LED bulb in question wants Energy Star Approval.
One of the requirements is Lumen Maintenance for a rated time.
They must not loose more than 30% if memory serves me for the rated life given.
http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/product_specs/program_reqs/Integral_LED_Lamps_Program_Requirements.pdf?ec9c-a9b0

My feelings are the questionable electronic components in some LED bulbs will fail way before the LEDs loose their brightness.

Edited by - BLH on 07/02/2012 12:27:25 PM
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BLH
Advanced Member

4470 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2012 :  12:54:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just picked up a Philips LED Light Bulb that won the US Department of Energy $10,000,000 LPrize Award.
For the 60 watt replacement category.

10 Watts, 940 lumens, 2700K, 92 CRI. Dimmable with a Leading Edge Type Dimmer. 30,000 Hour Average Life.

Most vendors have them for around $49.99. My power company had a $10.00 incentive so I got one for $39.99
plus CT State Sales Tax and shipping. The lesser efficient 12.5W 800 lumen Philips ENDURALeds where $16.60
including the $10 incentive.

Those who have seen the alien head style of the 12.5 watt 800 lumen,Philips EnduraLED.
This one looks similar. Except it uses a few Ultra Bright Red LEDs along with the Ultra Bright Blue LEDs.
To cause the phosphorescent plastic covers to glow bright white.
When dimmed to a very low I could see the bluish red tint in the light.

Did not work well with a few automation modules.
LM14A. Flickered and went partially dim when On.
LM465 SS 08A01. Flickered and went partially dim when On.
LM465 SS 09J44. Flickered and went partially dim when On.
LM465 before SS no date code. Worked fine. Flicker one pulse when going On or Off near 0%.
Insteon 2456D3 LampLinc Dimmer Hw 4.3. Worked OK. Flicker one pulse when going On or Off near 0%.
Insteon 2477D Dual Band SwitchLinc Dimmer Hw. 6.5. Worked OK. Flicker one pulse when going On or Off near 0%.
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jdale
Advanced Member

USA
1171 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2012 :  8:58:19 PM  Show Profile  Visit jdale's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I have one of those as well. Have not tried it with Insteon (although if people want more data I'll do so) or a dimmer, but the light quality is good.

If you're in MA or RI, you can get them for $25. http://www.energyfederation.org/estarlights/default.php/cPath/4249_5938_6458

Insteon FAQ: http://goo.gl/qNTNr
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BLH
Advanced Member

4470 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2012 :  03:20:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the link.
Unfortunately CT is $10 through CL&P.
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stusviews
Moderator

USA
11461 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2012 :  11:28:44 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Sylvania 75w equivalent. It may be the brightest A19 bulb size dimmable LED. Subjectively close to incandescent, rated @ 2700K, 1100 lumens. Does not ramp up from zero, but starts at some higher (subjective) level, somewhere between 10% and 15%, but it does ramp down to zero smoothly.

Winked when an Insteon command was sent, pulsated during sync, linking, etc.

Solution: Leviton 6287 Noise Block

They're as handy as FilterLincs.

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tg88way
Starting Member

USA
1 Posts

Posted - 07/02/2013 :  3:22:36 PM  Show Profile  Visit tg88way's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I have a 50' long LED strip that goes along the perimeter of my ceiling. They supposedly are pulling 260+/- watts at full power, but I have it dimmed to a point where I'm probably only using half of that. They are mostly good for mood lighting. I spent about $100 on the system, so all in, I'm not really saving much. But they look cool. : )
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stusviews
Moderator

USA
11461 Posts

Posted - 07/02/2013 :  3:46:26 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by tg88way
They supposedly are pulling 260+/- watts at full power


That's a lot of energy being used. Do you mean 26.0 watts?

Stu's Views is Education and Fun. What do YOU want to VIEW today?
MathLandia High school mathematics learning fun.
Both Stu's Views and MathLandia are free websites that do not sell anything.
Saving energy is not always free. Be a world saver.
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