Talk About the Latest in Home Automation/Home Electronics
Home Automation Forum

Smarthome Forum
Login or Register
 
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Search | FAQ | Smarthome
 All Forums
 General Discussion
 Security
 Wireless vs. Wired security
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  

russvan
New Member

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2011 :  10:22:51 AM  Show Profile  Visit russvan's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I am curious to hear about the different brands of wireless security products and what the advantages/disadvantages are. I know that wireless has been more and more poppular, but has it really closed the gap with hardwire?

stusviews
Moderator

USA
11466 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2011 :  11:36:28 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Wireless is easy and, in most person's situations, is adequate.

If you are in a place where high security is necessary, for example, a bank, a museum, or any place where a break in is is tempting and will lead to catastrophic results like loss of property or other valuables, both hard wired and wireless devices are required.

So no, wireless has not closed "the gap."

What kind of area do you want to protect? What kind of intrusions do you want to detect? What kind of notification do you want?

Stu's Views is Education and Fun. What do YOU want to VIEW today?
MathLandia High school mathematics learning fun.
Both Stu's Views and MathLandia are free websites that do not sell anything.
Saving energy is not always free. Be a world saver.
Go to Top of Page

russvan
New Member

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2011 :  06:57:24 AM  Show Profile  Visit russvan's Homepage  Reply with Quote
From your reply, are you saying that there are some devices that need to be hardwired that can't be wireless or are you saying that a wireless device is adequate but the same device hardwired is better. Are you saying that wireless is less secure because of its ease of installation?
Go to Top of Page

stusviews
Moderator

USA
11466 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2011 :  11:46:34 AM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Each has its niche. It depends on what you want to protect, what you want to detect, and the level of security needed.

For example, someone living in a high rise can be less concerned about glass breakage that someone with a street level retail store. A jewelry market needs a higher level of protection that a grocery.

Ease of installation is usually an asset.

Stu's Views is Education and Fun. What do YOU want to VIEW today?
MathLandia High school mathematics learning fun.
Both Stu's Views and MathLandia are free websites that do not sell anything.
Saving energy is not always free. Be a world saver.
Go to Top of Page

russvan
New Member

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2011 :  1:12:03 PM  Show Profile  Visit russvan's Homepage  Reply with Quote
What do you see as the "niche" for hardwire? Your example of high rise versus ground level is certainly true for security protection, but the question was about wireless vs. hardwire, not extent of protection.
Go to Top of Page

stusviews
Moderator

USA
11466 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2011 :  2:37:02 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Extent of protection is exactly the point. Is is, after all, a security system. That wireless is easier to install is self-evident.

A hardwired closed loop system is considerably more difficult to breach when protecting means of ingress such as a door or a window. A hardwired system is line powered with a battery back-up.

Wireless systems are preferred when an object is being protected, as opposed to a break-in so as to not disturb the aesthetics, for example. Sometime no other means of protection is available or economical.

An apartment may not need a hardwired security system. A bank does!

Stu's Views is Education and Fun. What do YOU want to VIEW today?
MathLandia High school mathematics learning fun.
Both Stu's Views and MathLandia are free websites that do not sell anything.
Saving energy is not always free. Be a world saver.
Go to Top of Page

russvan
New Member

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 10/19/2011 :  10:18:07 PM  Show Profile  Visit russvan's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Actually a hardwire system is easier to circumvent than todays wireless. I can cut a wire when the alarm is off and render the zone inoperable upon closing with little chance of the customer will be able to have it repaired for that arming cycle. Concealed wireless doesn't have any wires to cut.
In 10 years there will be no hardwired systems. Maybe its progress maybe its not. All I know for sure is that it is inevitable.

Go to Top of Page

stusviews
Moderator

USA
11466 Posts

Posted - 10/19/2011 :  10:47:27 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
That's not the way a closed loop system is deployed. A cut is easily detected.

Stu's Views is Education and Fun. What do YOU want to VIEW today?
MathLandia High school mathematics learning fun.
Both Stu's Views and MathLandia are free websites that do not sell anything.
Saving energy is not always free. Be a world saver.
Go to Top of Page

vedard_alarms
Starting Member

China
4 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2011 :  10:32:28 PM  Show Profile  Visit vedard_alarms's Homepage  Click to see vedard_alarms's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Hardwired system is more stable and suit for high security requirement. Wireless systems are easy to install. But there are signal transmitting delay, interference etc. factors. But wireless systems are updated day by day and more and more stable now. Generally, hardwired and wireless systems are used together to compensate. And the system will be more stable and easy installation. And different brand alarm detectors, sensors can be used together.
Go to Top of Page

EVIL Teken
Advanced Member

Canada
1243 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2011 :  07:37:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Don't forget long term costs of the batteries, and the potential of false alarms and dead zones.

People in general are lazy, these same people can't be bothered to change the battery on the smoke detector. Now, imagine an entire home with devices with batteries!

Another thing to consider is that some alarm systems use specialize batteries. Good luck finding those batteries at Walmart / 7 Eleven.

Lastly, they are more prone to temperature extremes.
Go to Top of Page

russvan
New Member

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2011 :  08:18:43 AM  Show Profile  Visit russvan's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Most wireless devices now use lithium batteries and have 5+ years of service between battery changes. You should never buy batteries at a local store. Mark-up is typically 300-400%. Buy the batteries on-line (simply Google the part number and you can find several sources)
Go to Top of Page

EVIL Teken
Advanced Member

Canada
1243 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2011 :  08:39:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree if you're a smart buyer one would expect them to purchase via on line vendors. Having said that, no body who is serious about security relies solely on a wireless alarm system.

As it was stated prior they are great in terms of providing overlap and layering in a hybrid system. They are not at this moment in time ready for prime time in any serious application as a stand alone platform.

Go to Top of Page

russvan
New Member

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2011 :  09:03:33 AM  Show Profile  Visit russvan's Homepage  Reply with Quote
If you think that wireless is not ready for primetime, you haven't had an opportunity to look at or work with the equipment that is out there in the market today. After having personally installed over 10,000 system in the last 40 years. I believe your comments are correct up until about 5 years ago. In the area of door & window switches, with todays concealed wireless switches, the security is superior to hardwire. Keypads and smokes are comparable. Motions and sirens still have a way to come.
Wireless has come past the stage of pioneers and early adopters and is now mainstream. If you are still doing primarily hardwire with some wireless you are a late adopter but will either adapt or disappear.
Go to Top of Page

Tfitzpatri8
Administrator

USA
8604 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2011 :  09:17:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You sound like you've come a long way in just a couple of months. From your first message in this thread, I would've thought you were a novice asking for advice. What's that about?

Volunteer Moderator & Home Automation Enthusiast
Go to Top of Page

EVIL Teken
Advanced Member

Canada
1243 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2011 :  12:02:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by russvan

If you think that wireless is not ready for primetime, you haven't had an opportunity to look at or work with the equipment that is out there in the market today. After having personally installed over 10,000 system in the last 40 years. I believe your comments are correct up until about 5 years ago. In the area of door & window switches, with todays concealed wireless switches, the security is superior to hardwire. Keypads and smokes are comparable. Motions and sirens still have a way to come.
Wireless has come past the stage of pioneers and early adopters and is now mainstream. If you are still doing primarily hardwire with some wireless you are a late adopter but will either adapt or disappear.



I agree with most of what you have stated above. Having said that, again no secure / serious client looking to protect and be made aware of a threat, breach, fault use wireless as the primary security system to secure their premises.

You will not see any national bank, military, CIA / FBI, hospital, any fortune 100 company deploying wireless as the sole protector of the premises.

This is not opinion, this is fact . . . Are there sites that use such wireless alarm systems in a live environment? Absolutely, but again these people are not only a small minority they are also less informed and going with bad advise from the installer / company.

My personal experience in the secure threat arena is that most if not all vendors who push wireless are doing so because it is easy and require almost no skill set to do so.

To run cable, make holes, and determine the correct paths takes for thought and experience. Ever one of these companies such as Brinks, ADT, etc simply push this new tech because it can be installed in mere hours, and not days.

Time is money, and when your only goal is volume and kicking out the next lick and a stick adapter.

Is this the kind of security you really want to count on for life and property??

At the end wireless has come along in a big way. The outstanding issues I mentioned are still present, and valid.

Humans are lazy by nature . . . You can't count on a person to change never mind test and inspect a smoke alarm on a monthly basis. What makes you think they will even recall to check the same *battery* device or even know what the hell is going on 2-3-4 years down the line when they think they are protected when in fact they are not!

Wireless has its places indeed . . . But, in the environment where it is mission critical and life and property is first. You will not see this application being installed as a first solve.

At the end this is the exact same thing with VOIP. You will never see any serious company / agency use VOIP for communications.

Power goes out, you're hedging your bets on a little battery to provide you talk time. Batteries are consumables, and wear out. A traditional land line is always energized and does not rely on 120 VAC being present.

Serious folks use what is proven (hardwired), and use the rest (wireless) for layering and redundancy.
Go to Top of Page

russvan
New Member

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2011 :  3:53:10 PM  Show Profile  Visit russvan's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I don't dissagree with a lot of your facts, but I do disagree with your conclusions.

"You will not see any national bank, military, CIA / FBI, hospital, any fortune 100 company deploying wireless as the sole protector of the premises." I agree that this is for the most part true. It also represents less than 1% of security systems installed in the US today. So you shouldn't make a blanket statement about security based on such a small niche. Government and big business are seldom early adopters of new technology. Air Traffic Control is still using 60's technology. Do you think they do it because it is superior to todays technology?

How long has it been since you worked with wireless, that you need to test batteries? Unless you are talking about medical pendants or keyfobs all wireless devices have supervision in the control that monitors the batteries. Most devices will work 30-60 days with after a low battery is indicated, making the replacement much more convenient. Of course there are no hardwired keyfobs or pendants, so for life safety medical applications I quess you either use wireless or go without?

Today we have concealed wireless door and window switches made to work in vinyl and fiberglass window and door assemblies whose installation will not void the warranty as any concealed hardwire switch does.

Are you aware that "land line" POTS companies use the internet (VOIP) to transmit over 50% of their inter-exchange traffic? It used to be you could rely on end to end POTS service. That is no longer the case. I don't like the internet for transmitting alarms yet, but think GSM is superior to POTS. Particularly if you are in a rural application.

Many installers still prefer to hardwire systems. They would rather make the money in labor rather than spend the money for technology. There is nothing wrong with that. I have spent thousands of hours fishing wires, running conduit etc. It takes a great deal of skill to conceal wires. It also takes a great deal of time. Most homeowners today don't have the expertise or time to install a hardwired system. That is why wireless is such a game changer. It substitutes time and experience with technology, without a loss in security. How many people outfit their homes with CAT-5 cable as opposed to using a WiFi router? Same situation. The purpose of this forum is to help people learn about security and I believe many are lookinhg to install themselves. Wireless makes the homeowner able to install a system without being a wire running artisan. Change is tough, but inevitable.
Go to Top of Page

russvan
New Member

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2011 :  4:00:31 PM  Show Profile  Visit russvan's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Sometimes you ask questions when you already know the answers. Its one way to get into a dialog and challenge people who already know it all. I started this thread because there are so many old line installers that have never taken the time to look at wireless. I know, I used to be one. I have installed for 42 years. I learn new things on just about every installation. I have worked with installers and alarm company owners around the country and have made it my mission is to get them to try new techniques.
Go to Top of Page

stusviews
Moderator

USA
11466 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2011 :  4:50:32 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by russvan

I am curious to hear about the different brands of wireless security products and what the advantages/disadvantages are. I know that wireless has been more and more poppular, but has it really closed the gap with hardwire?


There's been a lot of discussion wrt/your first sentence and all seem to agree that each has advantages and disadvantages that the other doesn't possess.

So, I'll ask just what do you mean by "has it really closed the gap."

If you mean security, than the consensus is absolutely not. There exists situations (several examples have been give) where hardwired is called for. In other situations, wireless technology is the only option. Sometimes both technologies are appropriate.

And then there are places with laser beams and armed guards.

There is no gap!

Stu's Views is Education and Fun. What do YOU want to VIEW today?
MathLandia High school mathematics learning fun.
Both Stu's Views and MathLandia are free websites that do not sell anything.
Saving energy is not always free. Be a world saver.
Go to Top of Page

EVIL Teken
Advanced Member

Canada
1243 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2011 :  5:43:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by russvan

I don't dissagree with a lot of your facts, but I do disagree with your conclusions.

"You will not see any national bank, military, CIA / FBI, hospital, any fortune 100 company deploying wireless as the sole protector of the premises." I agree that this is for the most part true. It also represents less than 1% of security systems installed in the US today. So you shouldn't make a blanket statement about security based on such a small niche. Government and big business are seldom early adopters of new technology. Air Traffic Control is still using 60's technology. Do you think they do it because it is superior to todays technology?

How long has it been since you worked with wireless, that you need to test batteries? Unless you are talking about medical pendants or keyfobs all wireless devices have supervision in the control that monitors the batteries. Most devices will work 30-60 days with after a low battery is indicated, making the replacement much more convenient. Of course there are no hardwired keyfobs or pendants, so for life safety medical applications I quess you either use wireless or go without?

Today we have concealed wireless door and window switches made to work in vinyl and fiberglass window and door assemblies whose installation will not void the warranty as any concealed hardwire switch does.

Are you aware that "land line" POTS companies use the internet (VOIP) to transmit over 50% of their inter-exchange traffic? It used to be you could rely on end to end POTS service. That is no longer the case. I don't like the internet for transmitting alarms yet, but think GSM is superior to POTS. Particularly if you are in a rural application.

Many installers still prefer to hardwire systems. They would rather make the money in labor rather than spend the money for technology. There is nothing wrong with that. I have spent thousands of hours fishing wires, running conduit etc. It takes a great deal of skill to conceal wires. It also takes a great deal of time. Most homeowners today don't have the expertise or time to install a hardwired system. That is why wireless is such a game changer. It substitutes time and experience with technology, without a loss in security. How many people outfit their homes with CAT-5 cable as opposed to using a WiFi router? Same situation. The purpose of this forum is to help people learn about security and I believe many are lookinhg to install themselves. Wireless makes the homeowner able to install a system without being a wire running artisan. Change is tough, but inevitable.




Lots of good points made here. Some points to consider with respect to supervision. Many alarm systems have their own unique *call home & check in* intervals.

Some are based on 24 hours, while others are 8, others have a variable rate the installer can set. This alone allows a window of fault tolerance which a hard wired device is not prone to.

Again, many systems will alert the user that a battery state is low, or requires a change. Some even tell you how many weeks the battery has been in service. Again, one assumes the client / company is at the ready to replace said battery at 3:00 AM.

Not likely . . . Many if not all wireless sensors have a delay from the time it wakes up, to the time it transmits the signal of a movement. This delay in a mission critical environment is unacceptable for most.

You only need to be *one time lucky* and in the security industry, luck and loss aren't something people who are serious are willing to count on.

Attack time, and the ability for a wireless sensor to continue to follow and track the first object, then another hit is poor, to pathetic. The majority of wireless sensors will allow the first hit to activate the sensor, while a second hit, will be ignored to conserve power.

Again, this sort of mentality is not acceptable in a live environment or those premises where life and property is paramount.

I do have to agree that the masses are what is driving the whole wireless industry. Nothing wrong with making something like boring alarm systems into the 21st century!

The problem I see it is that people often confuse DIY, systems like the Alarmlinc, ELK products as true security.

They are not . . . They do however offer a vast amounts of flexibility, value, and possibility in HA, and modest security. Again, you will not see a Securelinc / ELK product in any mission critical facility, fortune 100, or any building structure which demands proven and tested security.

With respect to CAT5 / 6, and wireless connectivity. Again, anyone serious about their data will not be relying on over the air communications. Yes, Wireless N has made huge leaps, powerline ethernet, again bigger leaps.

But, at the end of the day those who require consistent, reliable, and secure communications rely on a hard wired 10/100/1000 connectivity to ensure 100% uptime and manage their infrastructure.

The tech is changing, and I look forward to the change! Having said all of this . . . I am of the opinion that these techs offer more flexibility, convenience, for the average Joe Schome, who really doesn't consider the bigger picture nor realizes the holes and faults that come with wireless tech.

In my line of work validation of a system is based on the threat and the potential risk(s) each tech poses. I can not affirm at this point in time that wireless has passed that mile stone . . .

Teken . . .
Go to Top of Page

russvan
New Member

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2011 :  7:02:00 PM  Show Profile  Visit russvan's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I am not going to argue with you any further on the relative merits of hardwire or wireless. It is obvious we are each convinced we are right, but I do want to state a couple of facts about wireless sensors that were incorrect in your last response.

Wireless devices don't go to sleep and then wake up randomly to detect violations. I assume what you are referring to in your comments are wireless motion detectors. The way they are designed is as follows.

The infrared element is alway monitoring the background grid. It never goes to sleep. The greatest power draw on the device is the transmitter that sends a signal to the receiver to report a violation. When the alarm system is turned off there is often a lot of movement in the protected area. The battery is conservied by having the sensor slowly charge up a capacitor. It can take 2 - 3 minutes for the capacitor to fully charge. When fully charged and a movement (its really not movement but rather than going into the electronics of a PIR I will call it movement) is sensed the transmitter will signal the receiver. If the movemement is detected before the capacitor is fully charged the capacitor is discharged back into the battery. That is why you don't see continual response on a wireless motion the way you do on a hardwired motion. Since there is no movement in the protected area after the alarm is armed it's recharge time is not of consequence.
I am familiar with the engineering on the Ion-Digital concealed wireless door and window sensors. They power down the microprocessor 80% of the time. The clock powers it up for 4.8 milliseconds 32 times a second to test the status of the reed switch. If the status has changed it reports to the receiver, if not it goes is powered down for 26.5 milliseconds. This is acceptable because nobody can open and close a window or door in 30 milliseconds. It allows the CR1620 battery to last from 6-10 years. The battery only costs about $1.25 so that is pretty impressive.

I am not sure what equipment you use. The major players are Honeywell, GE (now UTC) , and DSC, with smaller amounts sold by Visonic, Napco, Radionic (Bosch), DMP and a few others. ELK makes a product that will do anything any panel made by the above manufacturers will do. I see you work in that 1% government-banking-hospital world. Often these entities are working from specs that are a decade out of date. I am sure that the product they use meet their needs. I don't think it is a market that Elk has pursuedbut it certainly has the capability to do what is required by those entities. But you really should look at a panel before you diss it because it might be used by someone whose creditials you don't acknowledge or a Security company you don't respect.
Go to Top of Page

Tfitzpatri8
Administrator

USA
8604 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2011 :  7:44:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by russvan

Sometimes you ask questions when you already know the answers. Its one way to get into a dialog and challenge people who already know it all. I started this thread because there are so many old line installers that have never taken the time to look at wireless. I know, I used to be one. I have installed for 42 years. I learn new things on just about every installation. I have worked with installers and alarm company owners around the country and have made it my mission is to get them to try new techniques.



There are ethical ways to start conversations, then there's what you did--luring people who were only offering to help into a conversation by misrepresenting yourself as someone with a genuine question. What else are you lying about to get what you want?


Volunteer Moderator & Home Automation Enthusiast
Go to Top of Page

stusviews
Moderator

USA
11466 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2011 :  8:05:03 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by russvan

Sometimes you ask questions when you already know the answers. Its one way to get into a dialog and challenge people who already know it all. I started this thread because there are so many old line installers that have never taken the time to look at wireless. I know, I used to be one. I have installed for 42 years. I learn new things on just about every installation. I have worked with installers and alarm company owners around the country and have made it my mission is to get them to try new techniques.


After 42 years, you decided to be a wireless crusader?

Stu's Views is Education and Fun. What do YOU want to VIEW today?
MathLandia High school mathematics learning fun.
Both Stu's Views and MathLandia are free websites that do not sell anything.
Saving energy is not always free. Be a world saver.
Go to Top of Page

russvan
New Member

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2011 :  8:24:04 PM  Show Profile  Visit russvan's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Actually I became convinced that its time was here about 8 years ago. I have slowly converted over so that now I only hardwire siren/speakers and keypads. On new construction I will often use a hardwired single gang motion detector. It was not a decision that was made that in any way compromised the security of my customer, but is has dramatically expanded what I can do both in saved time and in coverage that I could not retrofit wire. The big moment for me was when I met the owners of the company Ion-Digital, who make the concealed wireless switch. It gave me all the convenience of wireless and the aesthetics of hardwire.
Go to Top of Page

russvan
New Member

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2011 :  8:34:42 PM  Show Profile  Visit russvan's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I'm sorry that you feel that this discussion on wireless was some sort of trap. I think it offered an opportunity to put to rest a lot of the old canards about wireless. A lot of facts came out and a lot of opinions were expressed. But everyone is entitled to their own opinion, even if it is wrong. You know what they say "Ignorance is Bliss" but "Knowledge is Power"
Go to Top of Page

stusviews
Moderator

USA
11466 Posts

Posted - 11/18/2011 :  12:09:17 AM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by russvan

Actually I became convinced that its time was here about 8 years ago. I have slowly converted over so that now I only hardwire siren/speakers and keypads. On new construction I will often use a hardwired single gang motion detector.


So which is it wireless or hardwired.

I've seem some minor technical errors among the posters, but no conceptual discrepancies regarding security. Some cantankerousness from the OP, but no attempt at erudition nor clarity.

So, what is the gap you asked about? Because if it's something that a hard-wired security system can do that a wireless system cannot, the preponderance of evidence suggests - YES. And if it's something that wireless can do that a hardwired system cannot, the preponderance of evidence suggests - YES.

To be clear, I am referring to the security system, to wit, hardwired vs. wireless, not the source of power.

Hardwired security is mature and will remain that way - limited. Wireless security has come a long way. I've seen it rise from infancy to its present state, grown-up. And it can outperform hardwired on several fronts, but it's not yet sophisticated enough to make hardwired security passe.

Posters Occupy Power (PP)

Stu's Views is Education and Fun. What do YOU want to VIEW today?
MathLandia High school mathematics learning fun.
Both Stu's Views and MathLandia are free websites that do not sell anything.
Saving energy is not always free. Be a world saver.
Go to Top of Page

EVIL Teken
Advanced Member

Canada
1243 Posts

Posted - 11/18/2011 :  04:47:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by russvan

I am not going to argue with you any further on the relative merits of hardwire or wireless. It is obvious we are each convinced we are right, but I do want to state a couple of facts about wireless sensors that were incorrect in your last response.

Wireless devices don't go to sleep and then wake up randomly to detect violations. I assume what you are referring to in your comments are wireless motion detectors. The way they are designed is as follows.

The infrared element is alway monitoring the background grid. It never goes to sleep. The greatest power draw on the device is the transmitter that sends a signal to the receiver to report a violation. When the alarm system is turned off there is often a lot of movement in the protected area. The battery is conservied by having the sensor slowly charge up a capacitor. It can take 2 - 3 minutes for the capacitor to fully charge. When fully charged and a movement (its really not movement but rather than going into the electronics of a PIR I will call it movement) is sensed the transmitter will signal the receiver. If the movemement is detected before the capacitor is fully charged the capacitor is discharged back into the battery. That is why you don't see continual response on a wireless motion the way you do on a hardwired motion. Since there is no movement in the protected area after the alarm is armed it's recharge time is not of consequence.
I am familiar with the engineering on the Ion-Digital concealed wireless door and window sensors. They power down the microprocessor 80% of the time. The clock powers it up for 4.8 milliseconds 32 times a second to test the status of the reed switch. If the status has changed it reports to the receiver, if not it goes is powered down for 26.5 milliseconds. This is acceptable because nobody can open and close a window or door in 30 milliseconds. It allows the CR1620 battery to last from 6-10 years. The battery only costs about $1.25 so that is pretty impressive.

I am not sure what equipment you use. The major players are Honeywell, GE (now UTC) , and DSC, with smaller amounts sold by Visonic, Napco, Radionic (Bosch), DMP and a few others. ELK makes a product that will do anything any panel made by the above manufacturers will do. I see you work in that 1% government-banking-hospital world. Often these entities are working from specs that are a decade out of date. I am sure that the product they use meet their needs. I don't think it is a market that Elk has pursuedbut it certainly has the capability to do what is required by those entities. But you really should look at a panel before you diss it because it might be used by someone whose creditials you don't acknowledge or a Security company you don't respect.



As I am sure by now you realize that on some fronts when I reply the reply is phrased in general and in laymens terms.

*Sleep Mode* / *Power conservation* what ever the vendor decides to call it is fine by me. When you explain this to a client they don't really care that the device is at 20% capacity to conserve a limited resource.

What they do care about is the consistent, and reliable monitoring of physical protect space.

Some key points regardless of tech. Is that all motions sensors have an attack time, sweep, and detection area. They are all affected by temperature variations and back ground scatter.

This is why layering of the same or difference sensors is critical in all aspects to ensure full coverage and fail over. Simply increasing the heat in a building by 4 degree will saturate most cheap sensors, while 90% of the sensors on the market will not operate, never mind activate in below zero temps.

This comes down to selecting hardware that will provide the required protection for the specified area. When it comes down to protecting sub zero zones a wireless sensor will not provide the consistent, and reliable protection one is looking for in the long term.

My personal experience also is with respect to wireless devices is that many of the installers / clients. Disable the tamper in some fashion, this does not lend to true and complete security.

The ideal is to call out to the central monitoring station. Advise them you're going to change a battery for the device. Proceed to change said battery. Clear any and all tamper / faults in the system.

This is where it gets interesting: Assuming it is set up as designed, a tamper can not be cleared. This zone will either be a huge pain to the end client, because he can not arm the system. Or, if he has the forthought, must bypass said sensor until such time the installer / provider has either come down to clear the tamper, or walks them through the process.

What happens when this situation occurs? 99% of all live accounts disable the tamper when a battery requires replacement!

Again, this leaves a huge window for false security. In the same vain this also brings back the whole call back / supervision mode. The world we live in is scattered with noise, interference on so many levels that the odds of interference or poor placement of said wireless sensors again causes non stop reports, feed back of a loss of supervision.

After so many endless beeps and notifications of loss of supervision. Again, 90% of the end users have this turned off. This again is the downward spiral of the so called protection.

With respect to the likes of Securelinc / ELK. Many if not all of these devices on paper meet pretty much all the same specs that any of the major vendors state, no argument.

The reality is that paper specs, and real world operation is far and wide. I have played with the ELK at several homes and also on a test bench level. The device does indeed provide immense capabilities, and additions, coupled with the ISY plugin the possibilities are endless.

No argument there . . .

What people are forgetting is what is the primary role of this device??

Security . . . The iPhone is the swiss army knife of all phones, and it has taken 4 generations for this same phone to be a phone!

I can take my shoe to beat down a nail doesn't mean that is the correct use or tool to perform the right task. Take a hammer to do that job right. Add in a clock and a radio to that same hammer??

Really?? A clock and a radio on a hammer?? Sounds silly does it not??

If the point hasn't been driven home to all. I am very much old school with many things (not because I am old - not because I don't embrace technology - not because I can't graps it)

It is because each job / tasks / goal / must use what is proven! Time is the victor, as it has been so for ages.

As aside, true security starts with situational awareness.

BE AWARE - DON'T ADVERTISE - RUN STEALTH

Physical security of the structure, area, zone is the first step. All the rest is awareness and reactionary. Great discussion!
Go to Top of Page

russvan
New Member

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 11/18/2011 :  07:19:29 AM  Show Profile  Visit russvan's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I agree with all that you say. In a perfect world we would all prefer to drive a Rolls Royce over a Kia (no offense to Kia). There is no getting around that wireless takes more ongoing care from the customer than a hardwired system.
My experience with customers along with the evolution of equipment leads me to believe that 80% of the value of the alarm system for residential customers is in peace of mind, not security. If that is correct they will do what needs to be done to maintain it (the peace of mind). With a wireless alarm system that means servicing batteries themselves or having someone else do it for them. For some, they may choose to let the system fall into disrepair. My experience is that many systems are not used at all with the exception of the fire alarm and panic features (which they can't turn off). I think that is consistant over both hardwired and wired systems. I expect we will see a continued evolution in equipment and technology in the years to come.
Go to Top of Page

EVIL Teken
Advanced Member

Canada
1243 Posts

Posted - 11/18/2011 :  10:53:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by russvan

I agree with all that you say. In a perfect world we would all prefer to drive a Rolls Royce over a Kia (no offense to Kia). There is no getting around that wireless takes more ongoing care from the customer than a hardwired system.
My experience with customers along with the evolution of equipment leads me to believe that 80% of the value of the alarm system for residential customers is in peace of mind, not security. If that is correct they will do what needs to be done to maintain it (the peace of mind). With a wireless alarm system that means servicing batteries themselves or having someone else do it for them. For some, they may choose to let the system fall into disrepair. My experience is that many systems are not used at all with the exception of the fire alarm and panic features (which they can't turn off). I think that is consistant over both hardwired and wired systems. I expect we will see a continued evolution in equipment and technology in the years to come.



Absolutely, the bulk of the consumers want that *sense* of security! Yet are not willing to learn, use, and apply true security.

We all have to put food on the table for our kids . . . You sell, install what the client wants.

I am fortunate enough that in my side job that people who come to me have experienced years of many also rand alarm systems, companies, and devices.

This is very much like a house. Your first house you really have no clue what it is you want or how things are supposed to be. The next house as you get older, wiser, and with more experience you know what it is you want, or at least know to ask the Q of others who know more!

I offer my clients a true perspective of threat assessment and allow them to decide what areas they wish to secure. I do not how ever let them decide how it is going to be done.

At the end of the day the key things I impress upon all the users is that it must be easy to use. It must be at hands reach. It must be intuitive !!!

Anything hard, difficult, or pain in the aszz to use will not be used in the long term. Setting up the expectation and what will be done, and what can be done is also key.

People often forget security is a lifestyle . . . Once they realize this, and then employ the *rings* of security then, perhaps you might have a fighting chance against the threats!
Go to Top of Page

russvan
New Member

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 11/18/2011 :  11:04:31 AM  Show Profile  Visit russvan's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Amen
Go to Top of Page

Kazi
Starting Member

Kazakhstan
2 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2012 :  10:10:19 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A newbie here... I think every type of technology has its cons and pros. You can't say wireless or wired security system is better or worse. As a generalizaion, any system can fail at some point, as a whole or in part. But even a seemingly small technical fault can sometimes lead to a failure to detect an undesired event.

Bottom line. Wired is good, and wireless is good. Wired + wireless is even better. Either method of delivering signal has its applications and advantages/disadvantages depending on all circumstances.

I think comparison of security systems must be done based on:

1. Reliability.
2. Ease of operation/maintenance
3. Endurance to counter-measures.

One thought that comes to me when I think of wireless is, how easy it is to jam wireless signal with a random-noise jammer, for example... I don't know if the modern wireless alarm systems are capable of detecting loss of communication with all sensors in a timely manner... I mean, immediately... Probably not. Do they poll the sensors periodically? Or do the sensors report their health check status on their own?

Anyways, just some random thoughts on the subject

A newbie

Edited by - Kazi on 05/03/2012 10:12:35 AM
Go to Top of Page

burgtech
Starting Member

2 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2012 :  11:23:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I install DMP panels, both wired and wireless, and I think that they both are equally as good. Wireless is a great option for when the customer doesn't want to spend the bucks on labor pulling wire for a difficult run. The wireless zones check in with the panel within a certain timeframe, anywhere from 60 to 480 minutes or whenever the zone opens or closes, or else a trouble registers on the panel that a zone is missing. When the battery is low, it reports it on the keypad. The installer can check the signal path to the receiver by actuating the tamper switch before the transmitter is mounted. The frequency is in the 900 Mhz range, which is reliable but becoming widely used and could possible suffer from interference from another source, such as a cordless phone. There is an anti-jamming feature on the panel that allows this to be checked. If interference is detected, it's a simple thing to change the frequency.
Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Smarthome Forum © 2000-2014 SmartLabs, Inc Go To Top Of Page
Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.07