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 Old Heater(2 wire) Honeywell to Insteon Thermostat

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chjquest Posted - 06/21/2014 : 04:29:51 AM
First, I'd appreciate you read this post. As I checked many posts and read Insteon manuals, called Insteon support. Still it doesn't help.

I have an old house, the original furnace controller is this one (Honeywell Mercury one, see below)


Just few months before, I replace the controller with this one (Battery powered, 2 AA inside, Hunter 42997, 24V compatible)


My furnace only has 3 wires, and only 2 wires are really needed to turn on/off,

The wires from the wall,


In the current one back panel, I actually connect the blue (black) and the white one.
My meter shows there are 27.7V between them, and only 2.7~3V between the blue/red or white/red.

I tried to connect the 2 wires to 2441TH (wired Insteon Thermostat), no screen; even to connect the 3rd red wire, still no screen.

1. I'd like to know if anyone has successful experience to connect (components you are using, how to connect?)
2. Is Insteon Thermostat capable to control the 2/3 wires furnace ? If so, how ?
3. I have read the 2441ZTH quick start guide (http://www.insteon.com/pdf/2441ZTHqs.pdf), in Page 7, it says 2441ZTH + I/O module can be used to replace mercury / battery powered "vintage millivolt", this is exact my case, should I use the I/O module + Wireless Thermostat ?

Thanks for reading !
18   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
paceyben Posted - 06/27/2014 : 6:14:10 PM
You're not crazy. R is power but runs through the low water cut-off switch which feeds that power through to G. So you could use the insteon thermostat with 3 wires (G,Y,C), however when the low water cut off was active the thermostat would lose power. Otherwise, you could use the 24VAC relay as you suggested if you didn't want the thermostat to lose power. But in this case since it is only 1 stage heat and the wireless thermostat plus the iolinc is cheaper then it may be a preferable solution.
bolivar Posted - 06/26/2014 : 11:57:04 PM
Ok, looking at it closer that might work, but it might not. It actually looks to me like on the board, C is common and R is power. If that is the case you could make this work with 24 volt relay. Run C to 24 volt com, R to 24 rh. The other wire connect to W1 on the thermostat. Now at the board connect that wire to the coil of the 24 volt relay. With a new wire connect the other end of the coil to C. Then connect the contacts of the relay to G and Y on the board using new wires.

Am I crazy and missing something -- I imagine I am.
bolivar Posted - 06/26/2014 : 11:45:51 PM
I must be missing something. To me that looks like a 24v transformer. G to Y would be the switch for turning on the heat and it looks like it runs on 24 volts. So wouldn't running G from the board to 24v com on the thermostat and Y from the board to W1 on the thermostat create the on off switch for the heat? Off course you still need power for the thermostat but I am betting there is 24 volts between G and R. If this is correct then connecting R the 24 rh should power the thermostat. This is hard to tell from the diagram and I could be wrong, but I would measure the voltage from R to G.
tlarrain Posted - 06/26/2014 : 12:20:51 PM
I share my experience.
I have a two wire, low voltage, normally closed, thermostat controlled, water and house heater. Considering I'm under 220V/50Hz, I can't use the low voltage switch (110V/60Hz) , only the On-Off Micro module. After reading this and other forums, I've came out with the following solution:
Wireless thermostat, connected to Micro module
Micro module connected to a 220V relay which open or closes the thermostat circuit.
Works like a a charm!

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stusviews Posted - 06/22/2014 : 1:16:45 PM
That'll work. You can use two of the existing, but now unused, thermostat wires to supply power to the wireless thermostat by connecting them to a 6VDC power supply
chjquest Posted - 06/22/2014 : 12:39:29 AM
Just did another test.
I short (make contact) the two wires G and Y from the wall, the furnace then started~

Now, I am thinking to use the simple way,
Insteon Wireless Thermostat + I/O module

Just like the case in page 7
http://www.insteon.com/pdf/2441ZTHqs.pdf

How do you think ?

Thanks for your time and patience !!

quote:
Originally posted by stusviews

Thanks for the schematic. Using that Weil-McLain panel with an INSTEON thermostat requires an external power supply.

That's because the Weil-McLain system depends only on a simple contact closure as all thermostats do. But, the usual method is to apply 24VAC to the heating or cooling device. The Weil-McLain panel contacts are isolated from the power supply.

The Honeywell thermostat is not programmable because it has no power. The programmable Hunter thermostat works because it has a battery power supply external to the furnace.

stusviews Posted - 06/21/2014 : 11:34:12 PM
Thanks for the schematic. Using that Weil-McLain panel with an INSTEON thermostat requires an external power supply.

That's because the Weil-McLain system depends only on a simple contact closure as all thermostats do. But, the usual method is to apply 24VAC to the heating or cooling device. The Weil-McLain panel contacts are isolated from the power supply.

The Honeywell thermostat is not programmable because it has no power. The programmable Hunter thermostat works because it has a battery power supply external to the furnace.
chjquest Posted - 06/21/2014 : 10:58:43 PM
This one is zoom out and clearer one.


According to this diagram, G and Y wires are nothing but a switch (on/off). I am thinking to use I/O module or Micro On/Off module
chjquest Posted - 06/21/2014 : 10:25:26 PM
stusviews,
I'd like to confirm with you,
My ignition (two wires): one goes to W, another one goes to low-water cut-off; as for gas flow control, one goes to C, another one is a RED wire from the control board (back).

So, on the control board,
1. R (Control Board) to Insteon 24R
2. C (Control Board) to Insteon 24V COM
3. W (Control Board) to Insteon W1

Just curious, my current thermostat control is utilizing the two wires connected to G and Y (According to the other wires, they are venting and low-water cut-off). So, how come those two wires can start my furnace ? and Insteon since not using those two wires.

Here is the diagram attached to the side panel


According to the diagram, the thermostat indeed connected to the Y and G (which meets my current trace result).

PS: Just checked, C and R also has 27.7 V (AC). Kind of confused why the old config also works....

Thank you !

quote:
Originally posted by stusviews

It looks like the only wires connected to the original thermostat are white (W) and red (Rh).

If so, and only if so, then at the Insteon thermostat connect the red wire to 24R, connect the white wire to W1 and connect the black wire to 24COM.

After turning off power to the furnace, ensure that red (from the thermostat) is wired to R and white is wired to W. Connect the black wire to C.

Restore power to the furnace. The thermostat should have power.

stusviews Posted - 06/21/2014 : 7:23:41 PM
It looks like the only wires connected to the original thermostat are white (W) and red (Rh).

If so, and only if so, then at the Insteon thermostat connect the red wire to 24R, connect the white wire to W1 and connect the black wire to 24COM.

After turning off power to the furnace, ensure that red (from the thermostat) is wired to R and white is wired to W. Connect the black wire to C.

Restore power to the furnace. The thermostat should have power.
chjquest Posted - 06/21/2014 : 6:56:11 PM
Hi stusviews,
Thanks for your reply. This control (photo shown) is located inside the furnace.
I am not sure what do you mean by cooling ? (it is a water boiler, there is a control attached to control how much water flows into the boiler).

And you are right, they are GCYWR.

Those 2 are YGC,



and this one is WR


Just did a simple trace, the G is connected to the venting system (fan out the CO after burning, direct to the chimney, as for the Y, it is connected to the low-water cut-off control.

Right now, the 2 wires I have are Y and G (my current control just have those 2).
If I can get the C and R, will it be good enough to wire to Insteon Thermostat ?

Thanks !



quote:
Originally posted by stusviews

There's Y terminal shown in the image. Y is usually used for cooling. Do you have cooling, too?

Other terminals are usually:
W heating
G fan
R power (~24VAC)
C common

Can you find those markings? If so, what is each of the black, white and res wires from the thermostat connected to?

chjquest Posted - 06/21/2014 : 6:47:55 PM
Thanks. This is the control inside my furnace. And I think I know what you and stusviews are talking about.

quote:
Originally posted by BLH

That looks like a AC control transformer. It may have terminals for both sides of the 24 volts AC and maybe all you need.
I am sure others will have additional information for you.

stusviews Posted - 06/21/2014 : 11:06:43 AM
There's Y terminal shown in the image. Y is usually used for cooling. Do you have cooling, too?

Other terminals are usually:
W heating
G fan
R power (~24VAC)
C common

Can you find those markings? If so, what is each of the black, white and res wires from the thermostat connected to?
BLH Posted - 06/21/2014 : 09:23:35 AM
That looks like a AC control transformer. It may have terminals for both sides of the 24 volts AC and maybe all you need.
I am sure others will have additional information for you.
chjquest Posted - 06/21/2014 : 06:48:18 AM
Thanks.
Just checked the wire, from the original panel, it's two wire going out and I used the meter, it's 27.7V exactly I read from the wall. (Which means I can simply ignore the red one).

As to the board, I have no idea what's the definition of those two wires are used to control. (Need to take time to check the detail).


Those 2 as far as I know are used to control the ignition and gas.
I think I will then buy the kit and try again.

Thanks!

quote:
Originally posted by BLH

I would first check the furnace end and see what is connected.
My thoughts are two T Terminals and no C Terminal.
The other two wires you read a small stray voltage on. Maybe not connected to anything and just picking up noise.
That kit should work with a two wire heat only setup.

BLH Posted - 06/21/2014 : 05:50:53 AM
I would first check the furnace end and see what is connected.
My thoughts are two T Terminals and no C Terminal.
The other two wires you read a small stray voltage on. Maybe not connected to anything and just picking up noise.
That kit should work with a two wire heat only setup.
chjquest Posted - 06/21/2014 : 05:32:03 AM
Hi BLH,

Thanks for your prompt reply.
Just in case, does the I/O module work for this case ?

quote:
Originally posted by BLH

Looks like a two wire heat only setup.
Check the wiring at the furnace controller end.
See if the controller has a unconnected C connection.
You are missing the C connection for power. If there is a C connection use one of the unused wires in the cable for the C.
If there is no C connection. The Venstar two wire heat only kit maybe used to add the missing power needed for the Insteon Thermostat.
http://www.smarthome.com/30418/Venstar-ACC0436-Thermostat-Two-Wire-Heat-Only-Kit/p.aspx


BLH Posted - 06/21/2014 : 04:55:58 AM
Looks like a two wire heat only setup.
Check the wiring at the furnace controller end.
See if the controller has a unconnected C connection.
You are missing the C connection for power. If there is a C connection use one of the unused wires in the cable for the C.
If there is no C connection. The Venstar two wire heat only kit maybe used to add the missing power needed for the Insteon Thermostat.
http://www.smarthome.com/30418/Venstar-ACC0436-Thermostat-Two-Wire-Heat-Only-Kit/p.aspx

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