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bbruck
Junior Member

38 Posts

Posted - 04/09/2012 :  2:51:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have a Casablanca Inteli-Touch fan that I want to use with an Insteon Fanlinc.

I have disassembled the fan and can see the wires as shown on page 6 of the attached wiring diagram. Attaching the Fanlinc wires to the white and black for the fan's light kit is pretty straight forward, as is attaching the Fanlinc power wires.

The three remaining wires are a little bit of mystery to me. The diagram (see attached pdf) shows the following:

Red --|
| 60 Ohm
White-| 120 Ohm
| 60 Ohm
Brown-|

I'm guessing that I either need to select one of the red or brown and the white to attach to the Fanlinc (where the other one would have the fan going the opposite way) OR that these are used in combination with the triacs to give 3 of the six speed settings and that my only option is to pick the red OR the brown to attach to teh Fanlinc in combination with the white.

I'm hoping that someone with a smidge of electrical experience might be willing to look at this and give me a hint as to how to proceed.

(I'm also assuming that no matter what I do, I'll lose the ability to ever reverse the fan, but am willing to accept that price to control it with Indigo.)

Here's the image from the casablanca user manual:

http://www.perceptiveautomation.com/userforum/download/file.php?id=639

The text below the diagram says the following:

The microcomputer sends commands to the light drive
module, (LDM), which in turn controls the on/off and dimming
range of the light fixture. Note: The microcomputer “reads” the
presence of the LDM by detecting the operation of a small light
emitting diode within the optocoupler on the LDM.
The microcomputer also controls the direction of the fan
through a small reversing relay mounted on the
RMM circuit board.
To control motor speed, the microcomputer selects one of
six outputs, each of which turns on an electronic switch known
as a triac. These six triacs are located on the RMM circuit board.
In high speed, a triac drives the motor directly. In all other
speeds, a triac drives the motor through one or all five dropping
resistors contained within the BFR. This reduces power to the
motor while maintaining a pure sine wave drive.

skydvrz
Senior Member

USA
270 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2012 :  1:56:35 PM  Show Profile  Visit skydvrz's Homepage  Reply with Quote
A Fanlinc is not really designed to work with "smart" fans. The controller card in the fan is not directly compatible with the circuitry in the Fanlinc. Connecting the Fanlinc to the Casablanca without doing some serious modifications to the fan will not work.

You *may* be able to get the Fanlinc to work if you can successfully do a "brainectomy" on the Casablanca fan and connect the Fanlinc wires to the appropriate wires on the motor and it's light (mostly on J2). Note that you need some superior technician/engineering skills to pull this off. As you noted, you will not be able to get the thing to spin in reverse, since this is handled in the Casablanca's controller.

I am concerned that the dual windings on the motor may not be compatible with the Fanlinc - this may be a deal breaker for you.

It may be cheaper (and a lot safer) to replace the Casablanca with a "dumb" fan and hook your Fanlinc to that instead.


Best regards,

Kevin G. McCoy
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stusviews
Advanced Member

USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2012 :  2:28:31 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
If you're looking for something really nice, the vast majority of upscale fans are wired to wall switches. The FanLinc is especially suited to such a fan.

And, there are a number of good looking less costly fans as well without remote capability built-in.

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greennote
Starting Member

USA
1 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2012 :  6:48:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
bbruck, were you able to make the fanlinc work with the Casablanca Intellitouch? I have four of these fans in my house and would like to be able to control them via Insteon.
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Autonow
Average Member

USA
106 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2013 :  10:06:07 PM  Show Profile  Visit Autonow's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Time to revive this topic. I just attempted an install. What i found.... The easy stuff first, it is possible to do forward and reverse. Use a micro on/off to power a single pole double throw relay ( a form c contact) connect the red fan linc to the common and the motor (red and brown wires)to the other 2 terminals. The relay will switch the power to the fan. i tested this and it works but you need to let the fan come to a stop first!

ok on to the fan linc.. I have mixed results. The fan seems to run at high and med speed. But it will not start on its own.. Needs a push in one direction. at low speed the fan is off.. So what this is telling me is something is up with the fanlinc or the way the motor was wired, Like bbruck I used one pair to the motor (ie red and white) I removed the inteli-touch. Any Ideas...

I am thinking there is some type of start capacitor to bump the motor to start that is not part of fanlinc. One would think power on the red and white motor leads should start and run the fan full speed. Unless fanlinc is not providing full voltage or a sine wave at max setting.

Of course smarthome sales said it would work with any fan,
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BLH
Advanced Member

6071 Posts

Posted - 06/25/2013 :  05:25:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Some reversible motors use a capacitor in the wiring.
You may want to see if there is a capacitor between the Red and Brown wires of the motor. I do see a 10 MFD/220 VAC capacitor on the RMM-II&III board in the posted diagram link. That could be in the motor running circuit.
If it is in the motor circuit. Neutral of the AC power would be on the common White wire and the Line connected to Brown for one direction and Red for the other direction.

If you are bypassing the PC Boards and it does use a capacitor to run. It may not have the needed torque to start on its own and need the push.

Edited by - BLH on 06/25/2013 06:07:54 AM
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Autonow
Average Member

USA
106 Posts

Posted - 06/25/2013 :  09:46:25 AM  Show Profile  Visit Autonow's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Very good. Mine has a 8uf capacitor on the circuit board. So this capacitor will go across both windings (red and brown).
But (always a but) if you change voltage the current changes and so does the impedance. So at a lower speed you would need less capacitance to keep the phases at 90deg's. How does the fanlinc do this?
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BLH
Advanced Member

6071 Posts

Posted - 06/25/2013 :  10:04:12 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You may want to verify the cap is across the red and brown wires. With a meter to be safe.
Smartlabs {manufacturing branch} doesn't provide that kind of data. Not even to us Developers Group members.
There are fairly clear photos of the inside of a 2475F FanLinc in the FCC database. Not sure what the blank pages in the photos would reveal as some in that file have no photo.
https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/GenericSearch.cfm
Grantee: SBP
Product Code: 2475F
Details Tab

Just search Grantee SBP with no product code and you will find all of the Dual Band devices in the database.

Edited by - BLH on 06/25/2013 10:17:18 AM
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bbruck
Junior Member

38 Posts

Posted - 06/25/2013 :  10:45:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm glad others are still "at" this topic. I replaced one of my casablanca fans with a cheap $80 one in a bedroom. I still have the guts of the casablanca in my workshop as I disassembled it and never re-assembled it. The motor on the casablanca must weigh 5x what the cheap Hampton Bay motor weighs - the difference in quality is simply astounding.

I contacted a casablanca fan repair shop - unfortunately I don't have the name right now - having googled them on the internet, and found one that would turn a smart casablanca into a dumb one for about $150. I think that would be the way to go. I have six casablancas including one with the fabric arms, one with a mica lamp, and an ultra-model stealth one. I can't see just getting plain old white fans to replace them, but I'm glad some folks are trying to figure out how to make them dumb enough for home automation to work!
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jimsearle
Starting Member

USA
10 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2013 :  09:22:59 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

I'd love to be able to control my Casablanca fan with Inteli-Touch, but I'm hesitant to install a fanlinc due to the issues discussed here, and since it is new I would rather not void the warranty.

So, couldn't it be controlled directly with RF commands? Although I did search around and couldn't find any info on the RF codes. I realize this may not be a 2-way communication, but better than nothing?

- Jim
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Autonow
Average Member

USA
106 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2013 :  11:24:29 AM  Show Profile  Visit Autonow's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Close to a solution. Will know more the first part of Aug when I return for the modifications. I am confident I have the answer including Fwd and rev.
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jimsearle
Starting Member

USA
10 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2013 :  11:31:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
does your solution use the fanlinc like your previous posts discussed? Or something else?
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Autonow
Average Member

USA
106 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2013 :  1:42:03 PM  Show Profile  Visit Autonow's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Fanlinc and the micro on/off module
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stusviews
Advanced Member

USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2013 :  2:46:28 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Autonow, are you using the FanLinc for the lights and the Micro On/Off Module for the fan? Or something else?

Stu's Views is Education and Fun. What do YOU want to VIEW today?
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Both Stu's Views and MathLandia are free websites that do not sell anything.
Saving energy is not always free. Be a world saver.


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Autonow
Average Member

USA
106 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2013 :  3:33:55 PM  Show Profile  Visit Autonow's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Here is the deal. You gut the inteletouch stuff. Use the fanlinc for the fan speed and lights and micro on off with a spdt relay for forward and reverse. The problem i am fixing is there was a capacitor on the inteletouch controller I need to replace (reinstall). I will post detailed instructions with pics. One remaining unknown is how the fanlinc compensates for phase offset at lower speeds(lower voltage). In theory you would change the value of the run/start capacitor as you change speed (lower voltage) that is the way a multispeed fan works with a multi position switch. I might be missing something so I will need to experiment a bit. I would like to hook a fanlinc up to my oscilloscope and see how it works but they are at my vacation property with the fans.
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BLH
Advanced Member

6071 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2013 :  4:39:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you want to see some internal photos of the Fanlinc. They are in the FCC Database.
https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/GenericSearch.cfm
Grantee SBP
Product Code 2475F
Details Tab
Internal Photos.
I have no idea why about 50% 0f the pages are blank.
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ELA
Senior Member

320 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2013 :  6:14:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit ELA's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The fanlinc switches in different value capacitors in series with the coil to control the speed.

Here are scope traces of the values at each speed:


Insteon Test Data ->: http://www.elavenue.com/insteon_test_data.html
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Autonow
Average Member

USA
106 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2013 :  7:47:14 PM  Show Profile  Visit Autonow's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Interesting That is what I thought they are just changing the voltage. It will be interesting to see how the motor reacts. Since the impedance is lower at lower voltage it will require less capacitance to keep the rotation angle at 90Deg. to optimize the motor torque it would have been better to change the frequency as well. Well it is just a fan..
Are you sure they are switching capacitors and not resistors?
Both Capacitors and resistors would be right!

Edited by - Autonow on 07/09/2013 7:51:03 PM
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paceyben
Advanced Member

413 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2013 :  11:15:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes most manual fan speed controls just switch capacitors as well. http://www.electrical-forensics.com/CeilingFans/HongSui-Fan/HongSui-Fan-Sch-LG.jpg
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jimsearle
Starting Member

USA
10 Posts

Posted - 07/10/2013 :  08:46:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So I kick started this thread with my post below, but then it got buried. Does anyone know if there is a way to interface the ISY to a RF transmitter to send Inteli-Touch commands?

quote:
Originally posted by jimsearle


I'd love to be able to control my Casablanca fan with Inteli-Touch, but I'm hesitant to install a fanlinc due to the issues discussed here, and since it is new I would rather not void the warranty.

So, couldn't it be controlled directly with RF commands? Although I did search around and couldn't find any info on the RF codes. I realize this may not be a 2-way communication, but better than nothing?

- Jim


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Tfitzpatri8
Administrator

USA
10765 Posts

Posted - 07/10/2013 :  08:59:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I haven't seen any mention of projects to bridge the two protocols. If there was one in the works, I would expect to find it alongside the other interface projects on the dedicated ISY forum here: http://forum.universal-devices.com
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Autonow
Average Member

USA
106 Posts

Posted - 07/10/2013 :  09:39:23 AM  Show Profile  Visit Autonow's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Jim are you sure the intelitouch uses RF to communicate? With the amount of wires off the back of the switch it looks more like a signal over the AC wires. If it was truly RF there would be interference problems with more than 1 fan in the house. It would require a dip switch to set different frequency's like a garage door.
I believe the newer intelitouch may be such a device "the w64" but I suspect they talk to the wall switch and the fan electronics are the same as the older models

So If someone were to develop a inseteon device to control the fan directly it would need to be like a 6 or 8 button switch. Price would be probably the same at $80 or so. With the fanlinc available I do not see a financial path for development.





quote:
Originally posted by jimsearle

So I kick started this thread with my post below, but then it got buried. Does anyone know if there is a way to interface the ISY to a RF transmitter to send Inteli-Touch commands?

quote:
Originally posted by jimsearle


I'd love to be able to control my Casablanca fan with Inteli-Touch, but I'm hesitant to install a fanlinc due to the issues discussed here, and since it is new I would rather not void the warranty.

So, couldn't it be controlled directly with RF commands? Although I did search around and couldn't find any info on the RF codes. I realize this may not be a 2-way communication, but better than nothing?

- Jim




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jimsearle
Starting Member

USA
10 Posts

Posted - 07/10/2013 :  09:54:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Autonow,

I'm not positive about it using RF. The wall switch to fan is probably some signaling over the AC wires, but I am pretty sure the remote to wall switch is RF, although I can not find where I saw that... There are dip switches in the remotes that must be changed if you have multiple fans. I guess I was hoping that an existing dual-band device could somehow send out the RF commands.

- Jim

quote:
Originally posted by Autonow

Jim are you sure the intelitouch uses RF to communicate? With the amount of wires off the back of the switch it looks more like a signal over the AC wires. If it was truly RF there would be interference problems with more than 1 fan in the house. It would require a dip switch to set different frequency's like a garage door.
I believe the newer intelitouch may be such a device "the w64" but I suspect they talk to the wall switch and the fan electronics are the same as the older models

So If someone were to develop a inseteon device to control the fan directly it would need to be like a 6 or 8 button switch. Price would be probably the same at $80 or so. With the fanlinc available I do not see a financial path for development.





quote:
Originally posted by jimsearle

So I kick started this thread with my post below, but then it got buried. Does anyone know if there is a way to interface the ISY to a RF transmitter to send Inteli-Touch commands?

quote:
Originally posted by jimsearle


I'd love to be able to control my Casablanca fan with Inteli-Touch, but I'm hesitant to install a fanlinc due to the issues discussed here, and since it is new I would rather not void the warranty.

So, couldn't it be controlled directly with RF commands? Although I did search around and couldn't find any info on the RF codes. I realize this may not be a 2-way communication, but better than nothing?

- Jim






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paceyben
Advanced Member

413 Posts

Posted - 07/10/2013 :  11:44:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jimsearle

So I kick started this thread with my post below, but then it got buried. Does anyone know if there is a way to interface the ISY to a RF transmitter to send Inteli-Touch commands?



There are too many variations in RF frequencies and encodings and ceiling fans especially do not use standard frequencies. Your only reasonably simple option is to open up a remote and solder some wires between the buttons and an EZIO type controller.
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Autonow
Average Member

USA
106 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2013 :  12:23:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit Autonow's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Well I have Successfully Made the insteon Fanlinc work with a casablanca fan!!!!

Well now that I have the hard part done.. Please help me with the keypadlinc. I have the eight button keypadlinc. All the buttons work to control the fan... My only problem is the led on the button is not quite right.
Here is how I have programed the scenes And please tell me if there is a better way!
Button A and B light on and off (works as a dimmer) This seems to work OK
Button C = fan off
Button D= fan low
Button E = fan med
Button F = Fan High
Button G = Fan fwd/rev This seems to work ok (button toggles fwd and rev ) Led on in fwd off in rev. I might change this to two button control like the light.

I made 3 scenes (that may be my problem) low, med and high..
In the hi scene I have fanlinc set to high and the high and off button (the high button is set to toggle on and the off button is set to toggle off) this works OK. But I can not add the off button to the med and low scenes since it is a controller .
If I make an off scene with the fanlinc off and the off button. This works too EXCEPT the other buttons remain on (low med and high) How do I get them off? (led off)

If I make the low med and High buttons toggle on/off then pressing the button a second time will turn off the fan which is not what i want!

I have tried making the other buttons responders but that only made thing worse. Im so confused.



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Tfitzpatri8
Administrator

USA
10765 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2013 :  12:36:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In 6-button mode, the keypad's big On and Off buttons control the keypad's scene 1. If you link buttons or devices to scene 1, both big buttons will control them.

If you want to control a different scene with the top and bottom buttons, you'd need to set the keypad to 8-button mode and cross-link the two top and the two bottom buttons. Then you could still use the 6-button frame.
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BLH
Advanced Member

6071 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2013 :  12:59:32 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the update on getting the hardware to function.
I hope you can get the button LEDs to function the way you want them to be.
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Autonow
Average Member

USA
106 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2013 :  1:39:39 PM  Show Profile  Visit Autonow's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I have the 8 button model. Here is my problem. Buttons can either toggle on/off (one press on one press off) or toggle on or toggle off. In the last two modes there is no way to undo the "set" Ie you press it once it goes on press it again it stays on. The ISY does not allow changing the state of the button only the back light. Why is there not a momentary option. That is the most common mode for automation. Perhaps there is I just don't know. IMO the toggle on should me a momentary ON,... and toggle OFF should be normally On with momentary off.




quote:
Originally posted by Tfitzpatri8

In 6-button mode, the keypad's big On and Off buttons control the keypad's scene 1. If you link buttons or devices to scene 1, both big buttons will control them.

If you want to control a different scene with the top and bottom buttons, you'd need to set the keypad to 8-button mode and cross-link the two top and the two bottom buttons. Then you could still use the 6-button frame.


Edited by - Autonow on 07/26/2013 1:41:22 PM
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Tfitzpatri8
Administrator

USA
10765 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2013 :  2:12:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Check in over on the ISY forum. With an ISY, you can use both programs and scenes to achieve similar results.
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stusviews
Advanced Member

USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2013 :  6:24:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Autonow

I have the 8 button model. Here is my problem. Buttons can either toggle on/off (one press on one press off) or toggle on or toggle off. In the last two modes there is no way to undo the "set" Ie you press it once it goes on press it again it stays on. The ISY does not allow changing the state of the button only the back light. Why is there not a momentary option. That is the most common mode for automation. Perhaps there is I just don't know. IMO the toggle on should me a momentary ON,... and toggle OFF should be normally On with momentary off.


Set button C to Off-only, set buttons D, E, and F to On-only.

Scene Off
Controller: button C
Responders: FanLinc Off, buttons D, E, and F off

Scene Low
Controller: button D
Responders: Fanlinc Low, buttons E and F off.

Scene Med
Controller: button E
Responders: FanLinc Med, buttons D and E off.

Scene High
Controller: button F
Responders: FanLinc High, buttons D and E off.

Stu's Views is Education and Fun. What do YOU want to VIEW today?
MathLandia High school mathematics learning fun.
Both Stu's Views and MathLandia are free websites that do not sell anything.
Saving energy is not always free. Be a world saver.


Please don't PM with questions that can be asked in a forum.
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Autonow
Average Member

USA
106 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2013 :  6:45:01 PM  Show Profile  Visit Autonow's Homepage  Reply with Quote
OK with some help from a guy on the ISY forum. I found the problem..
I was clicking on the scene and setting the values. What I was suppose to be doing was clicking on the controller and setting the values..
So the question is whats the difference between the scene values vs the controller values? You would think if the scene values were status why can you change them?

Since a scene can only have 1 controller why is there a difference?
You can see the confusion

Edited by - Autonow on 07/26/2013 6:47:12 PM
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