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Svengoolie
New Member

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2014 :  12:54:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello! I'm building a home theater room and would like to have 4 zones in the room. 4 lights above screen, 6 4 inch overhead cans, 6 sconces and 4 step lights in the riser. I'm trying to figure out what I need to do. I'm having my electric done soon. I'd like to mount the four dimmer switches in an adjacent area underneath the stairs. I wanted to put a keypad on the outside of the theater room that controls the 4 dimmer switches to keep the inside of the theater wall uncluttered. I would just use an insteon remote to control from inside the room. I read about the derating of the switches if installed in a 4 gang box, is there a way around this? I plan on using led bulbs anyway.

Thanks in advance!

stusviews
Advanced Member

USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2014 :  1:09:05 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
A workaround, if needed, is to use a 6-gang box. But, first determine the maximum allowable load of each group of fixtures, separately. Sconces, for example, usually do not have a high maximum load rating.

If there's no room for a 6-gang box, then placing the lowest load dimmers in the middle may work. Or, you may be able to mount the switches vertically in separate boxes, no derating needed.

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EricK
Advanced Member

684 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2014 :  1:31:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Check out the spaceman's theater build on the avs forum. I think he thought of everything. There are a lot of great builds that will give you ideas. Once you look, you cannot unlock, so your wallet may be sorry. Here is a linc to his thread
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1202525/spaceman-theater-build/1020

Devices (approx): ISY-994 Pro, 15 KPLs, 33 switchlincs, 4 outletlincs, 2 door sensors, 3 Lamp-lincs, 5 Appliance-lincs, i/o-lincs for ELK WSV2, Somfy bridge,and garage door sensor, Leak Sensors, 2 motion sensors, 4 access points, about 20 X10 devices.
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Svengoolie
New Member

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2014 :  2:02:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by stusviews

A workaround, if needed, is to use a 6-gang box. But, first determine the maximum allowable load of each group of fixtures, separately. Sconces, for example, usually do not have a high maximum load rating.

If there's no room for a 6-gang box, then placing the lowest load dimmers in the middle may work. Or, you may be able to mount the switches vertically in separate boxes, no derating needed.



When you say maximum load do you mean the wattage of the group of fixtures on a single zone. The 6 cans will take 50 watt bulbs each but with leds it will be more like 10 watts.

What about my location of locating the switches and keypad? does that sound sane? Will the Insteon remote work in the theater? Can I program another remote like a Harmony for example? Thanks for your help!
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Svengoolie
New Member

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2014 :  2:05:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by EricK

Check out the spaceman's theater build on the avs forum. I think he thought of everything. There are a lot of great builds that will give you ideas. Once you look, you cannot unlock, so your wallet may be sorry. Here is a linc to his thread
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1202525/spaceman-theater-build/1020




Erick, thanks very much! I've been a member over at AVS Since 2001, I just couldn't find exactly what I wanted to know over there using the search. I'll check it out.
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EricK
Advanced Member

684 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2014 :  2:34:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Think about putting a keypad, 8 button, inside the room. When you are in the room and don't have the remote, you are not going to like having to leave the room to adjust the lights. One kpl will not be an eye sore, especially if you color match it. Advice that you can find about new construction here will say to use deep boxes and make sure there is a neutral in each box. In this situation I would consider adding a traveler wire or two from the KPL to the switches in case you ever want hard wired control of some lights.
Eric

Devices (approx): ISY-994 Pro, 15 KPLs, 33 switchlincs, 4 outletlincs, 2 door sensors, 3 Lamp-lincs, 5 Appliance-lincs, i/o-lincs for ELK WSV2, Somfy bridge,and garage door sensor, Leak Sensors, 2 motion sensors, 4 access points, about 20 X10 devices.
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stusviews
Advanced Member

USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2014 :  5:19:04 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Svengoolie
When you say maximum load do you mean the wattage of the group of fixtures on a single zone. The 6 cans will take 50 watt bulbs each but with leds it will be more like 10 watts.


The rated load is what I mean. In this case, the dimmer can have a maximum load of 300 watts.
quote:

What about my location of locating the switches and keypad? does that sound sane? Will the Insteon remote work in the theater? Can I program another remote like a Harmony for example?


The locations seem OK. And, yes, yes, yes. But you'll need an IR link for the Harmony to control Insteon devices.

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Edited by - stusviews on 02/03/2014 5:19:47 PM
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Svengoolie
New Member

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2014 :  4:15:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My electrician would like to know if any low voltage wire needs to be run from the keypad to the four dimmers?

Thanks.
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stusviews
Advanced Member

USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2014 :  4:34:56 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Nope. No wires at all except that each powerline Insteon device (e.g., dimmer, Keypad) requires an unswitched line and neutral connection.

The dimmers are wired to their respective loads. The Keypad is linked electronically to the dimmers manually by pushing buttons and/or paddles on the devices themselves or by using software or hardware managers such as the Hub, HouseLinc or an ISY.

Stu's Views is Education and Fun. What do YOU want to VIEW today?
MathLandia High school mathematics learning fun.
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Svengoolie
New Member

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2014 :  7:16:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks again!

quote:
Originally posted by stusviews

Nope. No wires at all except that each powerline Insteon device (e.g., dimmer, Keypad) requires an unswitched line and neutral connection.

The dimmers are wired to their respective loads. The Keypad is linked electronically to the dimmers manually by pushing buttons and/or paddles on the devices themselves or by using software or hardware managers such as the Hub, HouseLinc or an ISY.

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Svengoolie
New Member

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2017 :  10:11:55 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Okay, I'm just finishing the drywall. I'm digging this up just to be certain things will work. The electrician ran the the appropriate wiring from the main electrical box to where the lighting fixtures will go in the theater room an to the 4 switches for the lighting in a closet under the stairs. The only thing he ran from where the kepad will be located is two (travelers?) to two of the boxes under the stairs. Is this going to work for the kepad and 4 light switches??

Edited by - Svengoolie on 11/21/2017 10:57:03 AM
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stusviews
Advanced Member

USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2017 :  12:54:03 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The term "two travelers" makes no sense in this situation. Just so you know, travelers is the term used for the two alternately switched wires in a 3-way (or more) configuration.

Most likely, the two wires at each box are line and neutral which is all that you need to install a keypad. Are the two wire black and white. Do you have a voltmeter. Even the least costly meter is adequate, a voltage indicator is not.

Are you going to install dimmers? If so, then the LED bulbs need to be dimmable. Not all are.

You indicated that, "The electrician ran the the appropriate wiring." Can you be more specific?


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Svengoolie
New Member

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2017 :  5:45:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by stusviews

The term "two travelers" makes no sense in this situation. Just so you know, travelers is the term used for the two alternately switched wires in a 3-way (or more) configuration.

Hi Stu, I'm not a electrician. I borrowed the term from someone else in this thread. I have only two romex runs from the box for the keypad in the theater room over to the 4 boxes for the dimmers located in a closet under the stairs.

Most likely, the two wires at each box are line and neutral which is all that you need to install a keypad. Are the two wire black and white. Do you have a voltmeter. Even the least costly meter is adequate, a voltage indicator is not.

Yes, it's 3-wire romex. Black, White & copper ground wire I assume.

Are you going to install dimmers? If so, then the LED bulbs need to be dimmable. Not all are.

Yes, I am aware of using dimmable led bulbs. Thanks.

You indicated that, "The electrician ran the the appropriate wiring." Can you be more specific?

I don't know how else to put it, sorry. From what I remember he went from the electrical panel for the can lights, sconces, and other two zones in the theater to the 4 switch boxes at the closet under the stairs. I guess what concerns me is there isn't any wiring from the main panel to the keypad box. Just the two wires from the keypad box to two of the four boxes for the dimmer switches. Will this be good. Probably should have run two more wires from the key pad to the other switches.




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oberkc
Moderator

USA
4095 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2017 :  6:12:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
The only thing he ran from where the kepad will be located is two (travelers?) to two of the boxes under the stairs.


My initial thought when I read this is that the electrician wired a switch loop, rather than line and neutral. If so, this won't work for Insteon. I find it hard to believe that the electrician would provide line and neutral only at a switch location with a return conductor for switched hot. Furthermore, I would want wiring performed in such a way that I could replace this with dumb switches should the need arise.

Definitely confirm this with electrician: Is this a switch loop, or is this line and neutral? Can I use a dumb switch in this switch box with only two conductors?
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stusviews
Advanced Member

USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2017 :  6:56:02 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
If the boxes where you want to install the keypads have only black and white wires, then the wiring is adequate. You may or may not have to change what the wires are connected to at the other end. Do you have a voltmeter?

Instead of "appropriate," I'd like to hear something like, "there are 4 zones in the room and each of the four switches controls one of these four zones." Is that the what you have? Are any fixtures installed?

Stu's Views is Education and Fun. What do YOU want to VIEW today?
MathLandia High school mathematics learning fun.
Both Stu's Views and MathLandia are free websites that do not sell anything.
Saving energy is not always free. Be a world saver.


Please don't PM with questions that can be asked in a forum.
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Svengoolie
New Member

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2017 :  7:27:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by stusviews

If the boxes where you want to install the keypads have only black and white wires, then the wiring is adequate. You may or may not have to change what the wires are connected to at the other end. Do you have a voltmeter?

no voltmeter

Instead of "appropriate," I'd like to hear something like, "there are 4 zones in the room and each of the four switches controls one of these four zones." Is that the what you have? Are any fixtures installed?

that is exactly correct. No fixtures installed. I'm confident that if I wire up a temp switch and light to each of the four zones it will work. Where I'm foggy is how the keypadlinc gets it's power to control the four switches.




Edited by - Svengoolie on 11/21/2017 7:41:18 PM
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stusviews
Advanced Member

USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2017 :  10:21:32 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The Insteon keypad needs only power (line and neutral). In fact, I have several keypads in TableTop enclosures that just plug in like a lamp.

Insteon devices that are not wired to a load work by linking the device using the powerline to transmit a signal to the controlled device. Linking is accomplished by pushing buttons of the contoler device and the responder device in a particular sequence.

It's really easy except for the footwork, that is, walking from device to device. An assistant, although handy is not required as you have 4 minutes before linking times out.

It's even easier using an Insteon manager such as a low cost, entry level Hub or more costly software or an ISY (best choice if you will grow your Insteon network and/or want to create special lighting effects).

The Hub is a best choice if your budget is limited, but if at all possible, start with the ISY. You can get the lowest cost device now and, without changing the hardware, upgrade as your needs grow. The ISY does not include smartphone capability, the Hub does, but there are a few choices to add that feature.

Each choice is subscription based, but the cost is not enormous, about the price of a nice dinner for two (alcohol not included) gets you two years of service (also without alcohol).

BTW, a third wire to the keypad switch boxes would have offered another option, but that does not seem to be a need for your situation.

Edit: response below the quote are easier to read than embedded text

Stu's Views is Education and Fun. What do YOU want to VIEW today?
MathLandia High school mathematics learning fun.
Both Stu's Views and MathLandia are free websites that do not sell anything.
Saving energy is not always free. Be a world saver.


Please don't PM with questions that can be asked in a forum.

Edited by - stusviews on 11/21/2017 10:25:12 PM
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Svengoolie
New Member

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2017 :  05:04:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by stusviews

The Insteon keypad needs only power (line and neutral). In fact, I have several keypads in TableTop enclosures that just plug in like a lamp.

Insteon devices that are not wired to a load work by linking the device using the powerline to transmit a signal to the controlled device. Linking is accomplished by pushing buttons of the contoler device and the responder device in a particular sequence.

It's really easy except for the footwork, that is, walking from device to device. An assistant, although handy is not required as you have 4 minutes before linking times out.

It's even easier using an Insteon manager such as a low cost, entry level Hub or more costly software or an ISY (best choice if you will grow your Insteon network and/or want to create special lighting effects).

The Hub is a best choice if your budget is limited, but if at all possible, start with the ISY. You can get the lowest cost device now and, without changing the hardware, upgrade as your needs grow. The ISY does not include smartphone capability, the Hub does, but there are a few choices to add that feature.

Each choice is subscription based, but the cost is not enormous, about the price of a nice dinner for two (alcohol not included) gets you two years of service (also without alcohol).

BTW, a third wire to the keypad switch boxes would have offered another option, but that does not seem to be a need for your situation.

Edit: response below the quote are easier to read than embedded text



So, it sounds like what I have is fine. Thanks Stu and Happy Thanksgiving!
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stusviews
Advanced Member

USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2017 :  4:08:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yes, you're good to go.

BTW, a 6-button keypad can handle 5 tasks (top and bottom buttons are On and Off, respectively. The other four buttons are toggles, that is, they turn the linked device(s) on and off alternately with each button push.

You may want to use the four buttons to individually control the four zones and use the On/Off pair as a master for all four zones concurrently.

An 8-button keypad can control eight tasks, one button for each individual zone, one button for all zones, one button for zones 2 and 3 only, etc.

Stu's Views is Education and Fun. What do YOU want to VIEW today?
MathLandia High school mathematics learning fun.
Both Stu's Views and MathLandia are free websites that do not sell anything.
Saving energy is not always free. Be a world saver.


Please don't PM with questions that can be asked in a forum.
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Svengoolie
New Member

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2017 :  5:42:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by stusviews

Yes, you're good to go.

BTW, a 6-button keypad can handle 5 tasks (top and bottom buttons are On and Off, respectively. The other four buttons are toggles, that is, they turn the linked device(s) on and off alternately with each button push.

You may want to use the four buttons to individually control the four zones and use the On/Off pair as a master for all four zones concurrently.

An 8-button keypad can control eight tasks, one button for each individual zone, one button for all zones, one button for zones 2 and 3 only, etc.



Yes, the 6 button keypad was what I plan to buy. Along with 4 dimmers and the hub. That should take care of my theater room. Oh yeah , an IR Linc for control with a Harmony remote. Then I'll go from there if I like how things are working.
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BLH
Advanced Member

6157 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2017 :  03:25:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
2411R Receiver or 2411T Transmitter?
The 2411R receiver is on longer on the sales site. Though a few third party vendors still have a few.
The 2411T is still on the sales site but look like priced to clear out $9.99.
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lilyoyo1
Senior Member

330 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2017 :  09:53:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Both of those are disco'd
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Svengoolie
New Member

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2017 :  3:53:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks guys, looks like that water a few years will do. I'll have to look for something else.
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stusviews
Advanced Member

USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2017 :  6:05:50 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Doesn't you Harmony Hub include an IR blaster (or two).

Stu's Views is Education and Fun. What do YOU want to VIEW today?
MathLandia High school mathematics learning fun.
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Svengoolie
New Member

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 11/25/2017 :  1:38:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by stusviews

Doesn't you Harmony Hub include an IR blaster (or two).



Ha, ha, your right Stu! Wait long enough and things change. I don't have the Harmony remote or don't know if I'll go that route but, Harmony's Web page says in will connect with the Instead hub. Looks like a very good option.
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stusviews
Advanced Member

USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 11/25/2017 :  2:51:58 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Our living room Harmony blasts from across the room. The bedroom Harmony is below the TV facing away from it (toward the opposite wall) and can still control the TV, Blu-Ray player and sound bar without even using any of the two included IR blasters.

Stu's Views is Education and Fun. What do YOU want to VIEW today?
MathLandia High school mathematics learning fun.
Both Stu's Views and MathLandia are free websites that do not sell anything.
Saving energy is not always free. Be a world saver.


Please don't PM with questions that can be asked in a forum.

Edited by - stusviews on 11/25/2017 2:54:09 PM
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lilyoyo1
Senior Member

330 Posts

Posted - 11/25/2017 :  7:04:20 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't use the harmony hub but I do use harmony remotes and love them. My system is hardwired using the xantech dinkylink.The harmony hub does work with the insteon hub. From what I've seen (with the few people using it), I would like to think it's a better and cleaner option than the old irlincs.

Edited by - lilyoyo1 on 11/25/2017 7:05:32 PM
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stusviews
Advanced Member

USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 11/25/2017 :  10:47:21 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Better: my IR Linc works well, my Harmony Hubs work well, but there's absolutely no double that the Harmony blasts on its own and the IR Linc piddles.

Cleaner: The IR Linc is smaller than the included Harmony IR blaster. but the blaster is not usually needed.

Costlier (added): but so much more functional. It can even control bluetooth receivers.

Caveat: there's more than one model Harmony Hub.

Stu's Views is Education and Fun. What do YOU want to VIEW today?
MathLandia High school mathematics learning fun.
Both Stu's Views and MathLandia are free websites that do not sell anything.
Saving energy is not always free. Be a world saver.


Please don't PM with questions that can be asked in a forum.
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michelle1
Starting Member

1 Posts

Posted - 03/25/2020 :  02:06:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I also want to organize home theaters like it. I searching for electrician Dubai here and got information. But I couldn't contact them. What should I do?
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whitecharger
Starting Member

Philippines
14 Posts

Posted - 03/25/2020 :  07:56:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sounds like a great plan, though I really need an electrician to do this for me.

whitecharger
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