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jdale
Advanced Member

USA
1205 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2014 :  7:43:04 PM  Show Profile  Visit jdale's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I thought I'd try one of the Insteon Thermostats but all my thermostat cables only have two wires each. Clearly not sufficient. One of them is in a location I could probably pull a new cable to. What do I need to connect at each end?

The current arrangement has three thermostats and three zones with separate zone valves (forced hot water baseboards). It's a little hard to take a picture of but here's an attempt:


2 (the brown cable) goes to the boiler.

3 is a bundle of blacks from 8, 9, and 10.

The unlabeled (oops) bundle has the reds from 8, 9, and 10 plus a wire from the left terminal on the power supply.

8, 9, and 10 go to the zone valves. 10 is the relevant one.

The cable to the relevant thermostat is just outside the picture, but it has two wires, yellow and red. The yellow one connects (via 6) to the yellow wire from 10. The red one connects to 4. 4 also connects to the power supply (white wire to left terminal) and the red wire from 2.

10 (to reiterate from the other direction) connects yellow via 6 to yellow from the thermostat wire, red to the unlabeled bundle of reds and the left terminal of the power supply, and black to 3 (the bundle of blacks from 8, 9, and 10).

Here's the zone valve:

From top to bottom (numbered 1, 2, 3) the connections are yellow, red, black.

Assuming I pull a 4-wire cable, what do I connect it to here, and at the Insteon thermostat?

Insteon FAQ: http://goo.gl/qNTNr

stusviews
Advanced Member

USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2014 :  11:09:06 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Each of the cables to the respective thermostats appears to have four wires, red, black, yellow and green. It that correct?

If so, then you don't need to pull any cables, You have enough wires at each thermostat. Pull the cable out of the wall at the thermostat and inspect for more wires.

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jdale
Advanced Member

USA
1205 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2014 :  1:07:06 PM  Show Profile  Visit jdale's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The cables in the picture (except the brown one to the boiler) have 4 wires each. But not all the wires are connected. E.g. the cable to the thermostat in question only has connections to the red and yellow wires, the green and black wires are currently not connected to anything. And more importantly, the cables shown do not run all the way to the thermostats. At some point between here and the thermostat they switch to two-wire cables. It's not just that the other wires are in the wall (I wish!), they are a different type of cable, brown with one red and one white wire the same as the one marked 2.





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stusviews
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USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2014 :  1:22:18 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
At the valve, red is 24VAC, black is Common and yellow is heat (W1).

The easiest way to wire the new cable is to pick up 24VAC and Common at the valve, leaving the red and black in place, disconnect the current yellow wire and connect that to the new thermostat cable wire for heat.

Or you can connect the wires appropriately at the pictured end.

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jdale
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USA
1205 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2014 :  2:56:02 PM  Show Profile  Visit jdale's Homepage  Reply with Quote
That sounds straightforward enough. Assuming I can pull the cable successfully, I will try it out. Thanks.

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jdale
Advanced Member

USA
1205 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2014 :  5:49:18 PM  Show Profile  Visit jdale's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Ok, pulled the cable, disconnected the original yellow wire from the zone valve, connected the new cable to the zone valve (yellow, red, black) leaving the original red and black wires in place.

Connected the Insteon Thermostat on the other end of the new cable: yellow to W1, black to 24VAC Common, red to 24VAC Return.

Insteon Thermostat powers on and appears to work (although it reads the ambient temperature as 6 degrees higher than it should). When I put it in Heat mode and raise the target temperature above ambient, it says "heating" but the boiler does not turn on. I tested one of the other zones and it appears to be working properly.

What should I be checking at this point?



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jdale
Advanced Member

USA
1205 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2014 :  6:25:00 PM  Show Profile  Visit jdale's Homepage  Reply with Quote
There appear to be some other quirky things going on here. The LED doesn't turn on even when it says Heating. If I hold down the Set button, it crashes (screen goes blank except the mode, backlight stays off indefinitely, LED still doesn't turn on) and doesn't respond unless I open it up and hold the internal reset button. So if the next diagnostic step is "try another thermostat", just let me know...

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stusviews
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USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2014 :  6:48:16 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Make any corrections:
quote:

The unlabeled (oops) bundle has the reds from 8, 9, and 10 plus a wire from the left terminal on the power supply.


All the red wires from the thermostats connect to a common node (4).

All the black wires from the thermostats connect to a common node (3).
quote:

4 also connects to the red boiler wire and one terminal of the power supply.


What does the other boiler wire connect to?

Does each thermostat's yellow wire connect to it's corresponding zone valve?

It there another "panel?"

What is the coiled wire for?

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jdale
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USA
1205 Posts

Posted - 09/21/2014 :  8:09:21 PM  Show Profile  Visit jdale's Homepage  Reply with Quote
This is the only location, as far as I know. I did pull the cable from the one thermostat to this location, so there's nothing else along that path, and there's nothing else on the way to the boiler.

The coiled wire (1) goes to a different thermostat.

Bundle 3 gets blacks from:
* all three zone valves
* thermostat cable 1
* new thermostat is connected to black at the zone valve, so it's electrically part of this node as well

Unmarked bundle gets:
* red wires from all three zone valves
* white wire from this bundle goes to left terminal on the power supply
* thermostat cable 1 also connects to the left terminal, so electrically it's part of this node
* new thermostat cable is connected to red at the zone valve, so electrically it's also part of this node

But these leave one more cable going to a thermostat, its red wire does not join the unmarked bundle, instead it goes to 5 where it connects only with a yellow wire that goes to a different zone valve (via cable 8). So, that one is not in contact anywhere with any of the other reds. The black wire from this other thermostat goes to 4. Likewise not joining with the blacks from bundle 3. Did they hook this thermostat up with reverse polarity from the others? (Remember that all the original thermostats were only two wires each. Only the new one has three wires connected.)

The red boiler wire (from 2) connects to 4 which also connects to the right terminal on the power supply (so, not the same terminal where the other red wires went).

The white boiler wire (from 2) connects to 7, at which point the only thing it is in contact with is the yellow wire of 9 which then goes to the yellow terminal on another zone valve. I'm not sure how these are supposed to be wired, but that doesn't seem like it could possibly work...? I didn't change this part though, and all three zones worked before.






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stusviews
Advanced Member

USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 09/21/2014 :  10:30:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Phrases such as "a yellow wire that goes to a different zone valve (via cable 8)" and "which then goes to the yellow terminal on another zone valve" are too vague.

Let's use this key:
Thermostats: T1, T2, T3
Zone Valves: Z1, Z2, Z3
with the condition the each numbered thermostat controls that respective valve.

We'll refer to the boiler wire as B.

The colors involved seem to be red (R), black (B) and yellow (Y). (White is a jumper from a bundle of reds to the power supply, so it's really "red in disguise.") In any case, you can refer to white as W.

Describe what each wire connects to, for example:

T1 black connects to Z1, Z2 and Z3 black.
T1 red ...

Z1 black connects to ...
Z1 red connects ...
Z1 yellow ...

B red ...

Also indicate which thermostat, T1, T2, or T3, is being replaced.

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Edited by - stusviews on 09/21/2014 10:31:02 PM
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jdale
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USA
1205 Posts

Posted - 09/22/2014 :  5:26:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit jdale's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Ok, new map. I realized while doing this that I probably had the boiler wire confused with the T3 wire. That would explain some things that seemed weird to me. Assuming that's correct, here is a complete list replacing everything from before.

T2 is the new thermostat.

Z1 yellow to T1 red
Z1 red to Z2 red, Z3 red, boiler red, left terminal power, T2 red
Z1 black to Z2 black, Z3 black, boiler black

Z2 yellow to T2 yellow
Z2 red to Z1 red, Z3 red, boiler red, left terminal power, T2 red
Z2 black to Z1 black, Z3 black, boiler black

Z3 yellow to T3 yellow
Z3 red to Z1 red, Z2 red, boiler red, left terminal power, T2 red
Z3 black to Z1 black, Z3 black, boiler black

T1 red to Z1 yellow
T1 black to T3 red, right terminal power

T2 yellow to Z2 yellow
T2 red to Z1 red, Z2 red, Z3 red, boiler red, left terminal power
T2 black to Z1 black, Z2 black, Z3 black, boiler black

T3 white to Z3 yellow
T3 red to T1 black, right terminal power

B black to Z1 black, Z2 black, Z3 black
B red to left terminal power

How's that? T2 seems like the one that is wrong. Should that be connected instead to T1 black, T3 black, and red terminal power?

Insteon FAQ: http://goo.gl/qNTNr
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stusviews
Advanced Member

USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 09/22/2014 :  10:49:45 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Z1, Z2, Z3 black to boiler black

Z1, Z2, Z3 red to boiler red to T2 red (COM) to power supply (left)

T1 black to T2 black (24VAC) to T3 red to power supply (right)

T1 red to Z3 yellow

T2 yellow (W1) to Z2 yellow

T3 yellow/white to Z3 yellow

Explanation

Zone valves:
red at Z1, Z2, and Z3 is the common power wire (left terminal at power supply)
yellow at Z1, Z2, and Z3 is the zone signal
black at Z1, Z2, and Z3 is the boiler signal

Thermostats:
black at T1 and T2 (24VAC) and red at T3 is the 24VAC power wire
red at T1 and yellow at T2 (W1) and T3 is the control wire for that zone
red at T3 is the COMmon power wire (left terminal at power supply)

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jdale
Advanced Member

USA
1205 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2014 :  11:07:17 AM  Show Profile  Visit jdale's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Made those changes, seems to make more sense, new thermostat still does not work.

What should I be testing? If I short red to yellow at the thermostat location, should the heat come on? It does not.

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stusviews
Advanced Member

USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2014 :  12:28:39 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Which doesn't work, the boiler, the valve or both?

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jdale
Advanced Member

USA
1205 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2014 :  1:03:24 PM  Show Profile  Visit jdale's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The new thermostat (T2) is not able to turn on the boiler. I am not able to tell whether the valve responds or not.

T1 is still able to turn on the boiler.

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stusviews
Advanced Member

USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2014 :  3:14:02 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Just to make sure, at T2 did you connect red to common and black to 24VAC?

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jdale
Advanced Member

USA
1205 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2014 :  4:02:31 PM  Show Profile  Visit jdale's Homepage  Reply with Quote
T2 black to T1 black, T3 red, and right terminal power.
T2 red to Z1 red, Z2 red, Z3 red, boiler red, left terminal power.

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stusviews
Advanced Member

USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2014 :  4:17:33 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by stusviews

Just to make sure, at T2 did you connect red to common and black to 24VAC?


At the thermostat?

Stu's Views is Education and Fun. What do YOU want to VIEW today?
MathLandia High school mathematics learning fun.
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Please don't PM with questions that can be asked in a forum.
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jdale
Advanced Member

USA
1205 Posts

Posted - 09/29/2014 :  7:31:32 PM  Show Profile  Visit jdale's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Oh, no, I had them the other way. Swapped, and now it works! Linked to hub and everything. Thanks!

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