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wharzhee
Starting Member

2 Posts

Posted - 01/14/2016 :  05:47:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Is there a way to control the water heater, without using the 240V 30AMP Load Controller?

EVIL Teken
Advanced Member

Canada
2354 Posts

Posted - 01/14/2016 :  06:17:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by wharzhee

Is there a way to control the water heater, without using the 240V 30AMP Load Controller?





Yes, by using any relay type of Insteon device such as a On-Off Relay, Micro Relay in concert with a definite purpose contactor relay.

ELK makes a similar beast where you simply add your On-Off Relay module. This sort of set up will surely out last the purpose built 240 Load Controller now.

Unless someone finally decides to update this hardware device with more robust parts and design.

Teken . . .

Want to make a real difference? Cast your vote to make the PLM Pro a reality: http://forum.insteon.com/forum/main-category/new-insteon-device-wish-list/8221-plm-pro

Stusviews: This world is made less with out your presence. Your contributions in all things has helped inspire millions to succeed. You were a husband, teacher, mentor, a friend to all.

I will forever miss our chats, debates, and collaboration. I will not remember how you died but remember how you lived and what you left behind. The sky has another star in the Heavens where you reside but the Earth is much darker with out your light to lead the way.
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wharzhee
Starting Member

2 Posts

Posted - 01/14/2016 :  06:39:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
ty for the fast reply.

I was looking around the insteon on/off switch specs, there's a max load of 17A Resistive.

For a small water heater tank, it should be fine right?
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EVIL Teken
Advanced Member

Canada
2354 Posts

Posted - 01/14/2016 :  06:48:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by wharzhee

ty for the fast reply.

I was looking around the insteon on/off switch specs, there's a max load of 17A Resistive.

For a small water heater tank, it should be fine right?



My apologies if I was not clear on my first reply. You will need a relay in tandem with a Insteon device such as a Micro On-Off Relay, or a On-Off Relay Module.

This is the ELK relay module which is connected to a On-Off Relay Module: http://www.smarthome.com/elk-heavy-duty-relay-contactor-in-a-lockable-metal-structured-wiring-panel-enclosure.html

If you look at the diagram you will notice its plugged into a Insteon On-Off Relay Module. This could be done the same way simply by using a definate contactor relay used in HVAC.

I only offer the two suggestions because some people just want a plug and play approach with out having to farm out all the parts etc.

But there are obvious costs related to have this convenience. If however you have some time and don't mind shopping around and simply copying the same layout as is indicated in the ELK unit you could build the same thing for half the price and that includes the box, relay, stand offs, etc.

Clear as mud?

Teken . . .

Want to make a real difference? Cast your vote to make the PLM Pro a reality: http://forum.insteon.com/forum/main-category/new-insteon-device-wish-list/8221-plm-pro

Stusviews: This world is made less with out your presence. Your contributions in all things has helped inspire millions to succeed. You were a husband, teacher, mentor, a friend to all.

I will forever miss our chats, debates, and collaboration. I will not remember how you died but remember how you lived and what you left behind. The sky has another star in the Heavens where you reside but the Earth is much darker with out your light to lead the way.
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stusviews
Advanced Member

USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 01/14/2016 :  11:25:29 AM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
What are the electrical specs for the water heater?

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eduardo_garcia
Average Member

Brazil
119 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2016 :  05:14:15 AM  Show Profile  Send eduardo_garcia an AOL message  Reply with Quote
Hello guys

There is any way to measure the water temperature using insteon?

regards

Eduardo
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EVIL Teken
Advanced Member

Canada
2354 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2016 :  05:38:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by eduardo_garcia

Hello guys

There is any way to measure the water temperature using insteon?

regards

Eduardo



There isn't a purpose built solution from Insteon. But some people have taken a wireless Insteon TSTAT and replaced the internal sensor with the remote probe that Smartlabs sells.

From there you could strap that sensor to the hot water outlet from the HWT. Seems to work for some folks here if you really need a Insteon solution.

http://www.smarthome.com/waterproof-temperature-sensor-for-insteon-2441zth-wireless-thermostat.html

http://www.smarthome.com/insteon-2441zth-wireless-thermostat.html

Teken . . .

Want to make a real difference? Cast your vote to make the PLM Pro a reality: http://forum.insteon.com/forum/main-category/new-insteon-device-wish-list/8221-plm-pro

Stusviews: This world is made less with out your presence. Your contributions in all things has helped inspire millions to succeed. You were a husband, teacher, mentor, a friend to all.

I will forever miss our chats, debates, and collaboration. I will not remember how you died but remember how you lived and what you left behind. The sky has another star in the Heavens where you reside but the Earth is much darker with out your light to lead the way.
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kdjerred
Junior Member

USA
44 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2016 :  7:05:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have a gas water heater with a power vent ( http://www.rheem.com/product/residential-gas-water-heaters-professional-classic-series-power-vent ) that requires a standard 120 v outlet. Any reason a person couldn't use an Insteon on/off module to create a schedule to turn the power to the hot water heater on and off so it isn't maintaining hot water at times when no one is at home? It seems an efficient water heater will maintain the temp at a reasonable temperature during the hours of the day when no one is home or when only moderately hot water is needed and make sure adequate hot water is available during peak usage for morning showers with the use of a scene AND have the ability to override the schedule with the app when the usual schedule is interrupted. I got the idea when reading about a new product, Aquanta, that has many more added features for monitoring hot water usage and supply (refer to themselves as the NEST of hot water heater controllers) but basically operates by cutting power to the heater. Any comments or recommendations? Looking for a cheap way for control since I have an extensive Insteon network that does a great job of home automation for my requirements with the Insteon Hub with app. Imagine controlling your hot water heater with your Apple Watch!
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stusviews
Advanced Member

USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2016 :  7:23:32 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Electrical control is for an electric hot water heater, not for a gas hot water heater.

You gas water heater uses electricity to control the vent and, optionally, display the settings, but not to control the heater.

Stu's Views is Education and Fun. What do YOU want to VIEW today?
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Both Stu's Views and MathLandia are free websites that do not sell anything.
Saving energy is not always free. Be a world saver.


Please don't PM with questions that can be asked in a forum.
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EVIL Teken
Advanced Member

Canada
2354 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2016 :  8:42:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kdjerred

I have a gas water heater with a power vent ( http://www.rheem.com/product/residential-gas-water-heaters-professional-classic-series-power-vent ) that requires a standard 120 v outlet. Any reason a person couldn't use an Insteon on/off module to create a schedule to turn the power to the hot water heater on and off so it isn't maintaining hot water at times when no one is at home? It seems an efficient water heater will maintain the temp at a reasonable temperature during the hours of the day when no one is home or when only moderately hot water is needed and make sure adequate hot water is available during peak usage for morning showers with the use of a scene AND have the ability to override the schedule with the app when the usual schedule is interrupted. I got the idea when reading about a new product, Aquanta, that has many more added features for monitoring hot water usage and supply (refer to themselves as the NEST of hot water heater controllers) but basically operates by cutting power to the heater. Any comments or recommendations? Looking for a cheap way for control since I have an extensive Insteon network that does a great job of home automation for my requirements with the Insteon Hub with app. Imagine controlling your hot water heater with your Apple Watch!



I am a Alpha / Beta tester for Aquanta and can tell you its solid product which offers lots of extra features besides remote control of the HWT.

The unit provides energy usage, water consumption, temperature monitoring, leak detection, scheduling, and obviously remote shut off.

All of the data is stored in their cloud hosted service so having the ability to track, monitor, and recall historic usage / consumption is available.

In the future the systems API will be made available so this should extend its HA capabilities with other 3rd party controllers and software platforms like the ISY Series Controller.

Teken . . .

Want to make a real difference? Cast your vote to make the PLM Pro a reality: http://forum.insteon.com/forum/main-category/new-insteon-device-wish-list/8221-plm-pro

Stusviews: This world is made less with out your presence. Your contributions in all things has helped inspire millions to succeed. You were a husband, teacher, mentor, a friend to all.

I will forever miss our chats, debates, and collaboration. I will not remember how you died but remember how you lived and what you left behind. The sky has another star in the Heavens where you reside but the Earth is much darker with out your light to lead the way.
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kdjerred
Junior Member

USA
44 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2016 :  9:59:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes, it sounds like a great product and now that I know you are familiar with it, Teken, and apparently pleased with it's capabilities, it gives it even more credibility! I'm usually a bit cautious towards new tech. I know what you are saying Stu, its for electric hot water heaters too, but a gas hot water heater with a "power vent" relies on its electric connection to control its function and is why the Aquanta specifies it's only compatible with a gas hot water heater that has the power vent option. I am considering the Aquanta, but was only requiring the on/off and scheduling capabilities that the Aquanta features and not all the other capabilities, but at only $149, it is a bargain compared with the components of other home automation systems if starting from scratch with none of the other capabilities/features. And who knows, they state they are working with other popular home automation systems/brands, they may be compatible with Insteon in the future! Thanks for your input!
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kdjerred
Junior Member

USA
44 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2016 :  12:02:55 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
For the time being I started using a spare Insteon on/off switch to switch the gas hot water heater (with electronic gas control valve that uses AC power) on at 4am and then off at 9am so hot water is available for morning showers. The water is still pretty hot 12 hours later when I get home from work. Also set up a scene that when I'm "AWAY" for several days and it is activated, will turn the heater off at 4:01 each day until I'm home and deactivate the scene. Since I'm only using the Insteon hub, activating and deactivating the scene schedule is the only way to set it for "AWAY" as far as I've been able to figure out. Other controllers would do a more elegant job of control but this works for now until I decide to invest in the Aquanta and its added features.
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EVIL Teken
Advanced Member

Canada
2354 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2016 :  08:01:55 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kdjerred

For the time being I started using a spare Insteon on/off switch to switch the gas hot water heater (with electronic gas control valve that uses AC power) on at 4am and then off at 9am so hot water is available for morning showers. The water is still pretty hot 12 hours later when I get home from work. Also set up a scene that when I'm "AWAY" for several days and it is activated, will turn the heater off at 4:01 each day until I'm home and deactivate the scene. Since I'm only using the Insteon hub, activating and deactivating the scene schedule is the only way to set it for "AWAY" as far as I've been able to figure out. Other controllers would do a more elegant job of control but this works for now until I decide to invest in the Aquanta and its added features.



I am currently still in Alpha / Beta trials for the product but believe the hardware is being sold now to the public. You can find on line videos about the installation and setup now on You Tube.

Let us know how you get on in the future as I am sure others will find the information useful.

Teken . . .

Want to make a real difference? Cast your vote to make the PLM Pro a reality: http://forum.insteon.com/forum/main-category/new-insteon-device-wish-list/8221-plm-pro

Stusviews: This world is made less with out your presence. Your contributions in all things has helped inspire millions to succeed. You were a husband, teacher, mentor, a friend to all.

I will forever miss our chats, debates, and collaboration. I will not remember how you died but remember how you lived and what you left behind. The sky has another star in the Heavens where you reside but the Earth is much darker with out your light to lead the way.

Edited by - EVIL Teken on 08/09/2016 08:02:36 AM
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Billu
Starting Member

USA
2 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2017 :  11:59:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi! I would like to buy a tankless water heater. I need those controllers?
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EVIL Teken
Advanced Member

Canada
2354 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2017 :  12:15:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Billu

Hi! I would like to buy a tankless water heater. I need those controllers?



Why?? A instant or on demand HWT only turns on and heats water when needed. Its the ideal solution for those who want to save energy as the primary factor. The obvious down side is you need electricity to have hot water.

With a standard hot water tank you have both potable water and hot water until it runs out even with out electricity. For those concerned with both issues like me.

Another solution is to install a instant hot water tank at the source or after a standard tank style HWT. This is called a booster / hybrid system and offers endless hot water supply while ensuring you always have a storage tank.

Teken . . .

Want to make a real difference? Cast your vote to make the PLM Pro a reality: http://forum.insteon.com/forum/main-category/new-insteon-device-wish-list/8221-plm-pro

Stusviews: This world is made less with out your presence. Your contributions in all things has helped inspire millions to succeed. You were a husband, teacher, mentor, a friend to all.

I will forever miss our chats, debates, and collaboration. I will not remember how you died but remember how you lived and what you left behind. The sky has another star in the Heavens where you reside but the Earth is much darker with out your light to lead the way.
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Billu
Starting Member

USA
2 Posts

Posted - 10/27/2017 :  02:54:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"Another solution is to install a instant hot water tank at the source or after a standard tank style HWT. This is called a booster / hybrid system and offers endless hot water supply while ensuring you always have a storage tank."
Together with these https://www.newtanklesswaterheaters.com/ water heaters without a tank, can I install a hot water tank?
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EVIL Teken
Advanced Member

Canada
2354 Posts

Posted - 10/27/2017 :  1:02:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Billu

"Another solution is to install a instant hot water tank at the source or after a standard tank style HWT. This is called a booster / hybrid system and offers endless hot water supply while ensuring you always have a storage tank."
Together with these https://www.newtanklesswaterheaters.com/ water heaters without a tank, can I install a hot water tank?



It really comes down to your use case and personal needs. In the ideal world having the correct size of (tankless) instant hot water heater is all you need.

You will need to balance costs, value, and long term maintenance with any of the choices you make from standard HWT, tankless, to hybrid. some obvious concerns you need to take into account is your lifestyle and how you use hot water.

IE. How many members in the family, do you perform showers, dishes, laundry at the same time? How many baths are taken a day, week?

Teken . . .

Want to make a real difference? Cast your vote to make the PLM Pro a reality: http://forum.insteon.com/forum/main-category/new-insteon-device-wish-list/8221-plm-pro

Stusviews: This world is made less with out your presence. Your contributions in all things has helped inspire millions to succeed. You were a husband, teacher, mentor, a friend to all.

I will forever miss our chats, debates, and collaboration. I will not remember how you died but remember how you lived and what you left behind. The sky has another star in the Heavens where you reside but the Earth is much darker with out your light to lead the way.

Edited by - EVIL Teken on 10/27/2017 1:03:04 PM
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pgesler
New Member

22 Posts

Posted - 12/24/2017 :  12:33:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kdjerred

I have a gas water heater with a power vent ( http://www.rheem.com/product/residential-gas-water-heaters-professional-classic-series-power-vent ) that requires a standard 120 v outlet. Any reason a person couldn't use an Insteon on/off module to create a schedule to turn the power to the hot water heater on and off so it isn't maintaining hot water at times when no one is at home? It seems an efficient water heater will maintain the temp at a reasonable temperature during the hours of the day when no one is home or when only moderately hot water is needed and make sure adequate hot water is available during peak usage for morning showers with the use of a scene AND have the ability to override the schedule with the app when the usual schedule is interrupted. I got the idea when reading about a new product, Aquanta, that has many more added features for monitoring hot water usage and supply (refer to themselves as the NEST of hot water heater controllers) but basically operates by cutting power to the heater. Any comments or recommendations? Looking for a cheap way for control since I have an extensive Insteon network that does a great job of home automation for my requirements with the Insteon Hub with app. Imagine controlling your hot water heater with your Apple Watch!



The thermostat on my AO Smith power vent gas water heater broke and no longer shut off when the water got hot. I unplugged my power vent cord from the wall and plugged it into a INSTEON REMOTE CONTROL PLUG-IN ON/OFF MODULE which I controled with a program I wrote for my ISY994i. I set it for 30 minutes to come on about a hour before we get up each day. Worked Great.

Since then I flushed the water heated several times and found the thermostat works again.

My latest project was to install leak detection using a WaterCop Leak Detection. If a leak is detected the WaterCop turns off the Main Valve where the water line enters the house. I monitor the WaterCop Status using a Insteon I/O device and if Insteon detects a Closed WaterCop Valve the I tell the water On/Off Module to also turn off the water heater thermostat so that the water heated doesn’t try to heat an empty water tank if the water heater was the source of the leak detected by the WaterCop.
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pgesler
New Member

22 Posts

Posted - 12/24/2017 :  12:36:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kdjerred

I have a gas water heater with a power vent ( http://www.rheem.com/product/residential-gas-water-heaters-professional-classic-series-power-vent ) that requires a standard 120 v outlet. Any reason a person couldn't use an Insteon on/off module to create a schedule to turn the power to the hot water heater on and off so it isn't maintaining hot water at times when no one is at home? It seems an efficient water heater will maintain the temp at a reasonable temperature during the hours of the day when no one is home or when only moderately hot water is needed and make sure adequate hot water is available during peak usage for morning showers with the use of a scene AND have the ability to override the schedule with the app when the usual schedule is interrupted. I got the idea when reading about a new product, Aquanta, that has many more added features for monitoring hot water usage and supply (refer to themselves as the NEST of hot water heater controllers) but basically operates by cutting power to the heater. Any comments or recommendations? Looking for a cheap way for control since I have an extensive Insteon network that does a great job of home automation for my requirements with the Insteon Hub with app. Imagine controlling your hot water heater with your Apple Watch!



The thermostat on my AO Smith power vent gas water heater broke and no longer shut off when the water got hot. I unplugged my power vent cord from the wall and plugged it into a INSTEON REMOTE CONTROL PLUG-IN ON/OFF MODULE which I controled with a program I wrote for my ISY994i. I set it for 30 minutes to come on about a hour before we get up each day. Worked Great.

Since then I flushed the water heated several times and found the thermostat works again.

My latest project was to install leak detection using a WaterCop Leak Detection. If a leak is detected the WaterCop turns off the Main Valve where the water line enters the house. I monitor the WaterCop Status using a Insteon I/O device and if Insteon detects a Closed WaterCop Valve the I tell the water On/Off Module to also turn off the water heater thermostat so that the water heated doesn’t try to heat an empty water tank if the water heater was the source of the leak detected by the WaterCop.
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kdjerred
Junior Member

USA
44 Posts

Posted - 12/24/2017 :  10:41:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That was a good way to integrate your Insteon system to control the main water shut off. I guess I had hoped that the water heater would be smart enough to not heat when there was no water supply. I use the same Insteon On/off switch to heat water on a schedule. I took a different approach to controlling the main water shut off in the event of a water leak. I wanted a solution that did not require a plumber and Selected the Dome water shut off ( Dome Home Automation Water Shut-Off Valve - For Pipes up to 1 1/2", White (DMWV1) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LX3JFR8/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_SKjqAbRYYN088 ) and in a roundabout way linked my Insteon water sensors to the water shut off via Stringify and a smart things hub. In the end, I get the same result, any water detected at any of 10 Insteon water sensors will trigger the water shut off.
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pgesler
New Member

22 Posts

Posted - 12/25/2017 :  1:02:17 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
How do you like the Dome water shut off? How’s the quality?

I’m not sure if the water heater thermostat shuts down in case of a leak?
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pgesler
New Member

22 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2017 :  05:59:50 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Kdjerred - I checked with support at AO Smith and they said that there would be damage if the water drained out of the tank with the thermostat still on. They said that you must disable it on your own on it would continue to try and heat an empty tank.


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kdjerred
Junior Member

USA
44 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2017 :  09:52:59 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have a Rheem brand and the manual states "The gas control (thermostat) is also equipped with a gas shut off device that will shut off the gas supply to the burner if the water heater exceeds normal operating temperatures." When your main water is shut off, there is no water pressure to empty a water heater and it would remain full and be protected from overheating. The manual also states not to attempt to light an empty water heater. That couldn't happen unless manually drained or a new installation. If all the water leaked out, the overheating safety feature would apply. It probably wouldn't hurt to have the same trigger that activated the valve to close to also turn off the power to the unit.

Edited by - kdjerred on 12/28/2017 10:02:49 AM
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pgesler
New Member

22 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2017 :  10:18:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree with what you said and my manual states the same about the thermostat shut off in case of high temperatures. I also know that my thermostat that AO Smith (and others) uses is a Honeywell and the Honeywell Thermostats do not reset themselves in the case of high temperature shut off and must be replaced.

I apologize for getting off topic. The major reason I also shutoff the thermostat in case of a water tank leak is because it was so easy for me to do with the Insteon devices I have.
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