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Greg.Ca
Average Member

USA
92 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2016 :  12:58:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
After a power fail and power being restored, one of my keypads went dead and I cannot get it to work at all. With keypads being $80.00, and the big hassle of redoing all of my links, is there anything I can do to repair it? It wont light up at all. Is house link still the best bet when replacing the device one for one of the same type?

--Greg--

stusviews
Advanced Member

USA
15854 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2016 :  1:18:20 PM  Show Profile  Visit stusviews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Try pulling out the set button. Wait 10 or more seconds and push it back in until it clicks in place. Do not push it all the way in.

It's easier to pull out the set button using a pocket screwdriver after the switch plate is removed.

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EVIL Teken
Advanced Member

Canada
2367 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2016 :  3:31:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've repaired a number of older KPL's over the years and lucky for me its been the capacitors. If its something other than the capacitors like a SMD component you are SOL for the average none board certified personal. Other common failures are the crystal and the components that make up the PSU.

I have detailed steps with lots of close up photo's if you need them just fire off a PM.

Teken . . .

Want to make a real difference? Cast your vote to make the PLM Pro a reality: http://forum.insteon.com/forum/main-category/new-insteon-device-wish-list/8221-plm-pro

Stusviews: This world is made less with out your presence. Your contributions in all things has helped inspire millions to succeed. You were a husband, teacher, mentor, a friend to all.

I will forever miss our chats, debates, and collaboration. I will not remember how you died but remember how you lived and what you left behind. The sky has another star in the Heavens where you reside but the Earth is much darker with out your light to lead the way.
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BLH
Advanced Member

6156 Posts

Posted - 06/30/2016 :  03:37:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dried out capacitors and bad zener diodes are always high on my suspect list.
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AD8BC
Senior Member

322 Posts

Posted - 07/03/2016 :  12:59:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Teken, I've never bothered to open up any of my bad ones but maybe I should. Is there a specific cap that goes bad? Is it an obvious failure like a bulging electrolytic?


quote:
Originally posted by EVIL Teken

I've repaired a number of older KPL's over the years and lucky for me its been the capacitors. If its something other than the capacitors like a SMD component you are SOL for the average none board certified personal. Other common failures are the crystal and the components that make up the PSU.

I have detailed steps with lots of close up photo's if you need them just fire off a PM.

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EVIL Teken
Advanced Member

Canada
2367 Posts

Posted - 07/04/2016 :  5:01:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Some of the switches that failed with a capacitor failure had dielectric leakage. Whereas others showed no visible signs like bulging or cracking.

My SOP has been to just replace every capacitor in the device and see if the hardware comes back up. When the capacitor doesn't fix it right away I move on to measuring the SMD resistors. Because they are in circuit you need to have a good one for reference to know if any of them are out of tolerances.

Sometimes its diodes, transistor, or crystal . . .

I've been lucky in the past as I scooped up some dead units at a garage sale for free and pulled out the diodes, transistors, and crystals for the repairs.

I never reuse any of the existing capacitors from any Insteon hardware as they have proven to be low tolerances and cheap. I only use high quality name brand low ESR, high temp, with 50,000 hours or above rated capacitors though.

Teken . . .

Want to make a real difference? Cast your vote to make the PLM Pro a reality: http://forum.insteon.com/forum/main-category/new-insteon-device-wish-list/8221-plm-pro

Stusviews: This world is made less with out your presence. Your contributions in all things has helped inspire millions to succeed. You were a husband, teacher, mentor, a friend to all.

I will forever miss our chats, debates, and collaboration. I will not remember how you died but remember how you lived and what you left behind. The sky has another star in the Heavens where you reside but the Earth is much darker with out your light to lead the way.
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smbenson
Starting Member

USA
1 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2018 :  11:31:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have 2 switches, 3 keypads, 1 lamplinc, and a PLM that have all failed. I replaced the caps on the PLM using info found on the net and it worked perfectly. Now I am looking at doing the same for the keypad/switches, but mine seem to be older or different than most pictures I have seen on these sites. I am planning on trying to change the caps which are all the same (470uf/35V & 100uf/16V), but my 2 switches have crystals that look like they are also bad (dielectric stains). The only markings on the crystal is 221AF 7? (of course the markings are covered with dielectric). Can't find any ref on the web, but was wondering if anyone here has found a suitable replacement for this type of crystal.
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BLH
Advanced Member

6156 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2018 :  1:23:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Are you sure they didn't slobber a big glob of component glue on them.
I have a few crystals with giant globs holding them in. As the glue dries out and gets old. It turns an ugly brownish color.

Edited by - BLH on 01/19/2018 2:28:17 PM
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shdwlynx
New Member

USA
24 Posts

Posted - 01/23/2019 :  08:23:03 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This conversation is an oldie but a goodie. I say that because Greg is still correct after almost 3 years - replacing keypads is expensive!

In my case, the failed keypad in question works for several hours at a time and then suddenly acts as if its power was disconnected, going completely dark and unresponsive. Pulling the set button out for a few seconds and putting it back in restores the power and the keypad works fine again... for about half a day.

I will be taking it apart to see if anything is obvious and then replacing the caps, but any suggestions on what specifically might be causing this particular behavior?

- John
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BLH
Advanced Member

6156 Posts

Posted - 01/23/2019 :  10:15:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I believe the Dual Band ones had a small switching power supply in them.
Working for awhile then stopping, cycling the power starts it working again. Sounds like capacitors that have degraded. When you open it. Look for bulging cans, the rubber plugs on the bottom starting to expand. That sometimes shows but I have seen some in the 2413S PLM just loose their capacity with no indications.
I would use capacitors rated for switching power supply use when replacing.

Edited by - BLH on 01/23/2019 10:17:06 AM
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shdwlynx
New Member

USA
24 Posts

Posted - 01/23/2019 :  1:39:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thank you, BLH! I'll check the power supply caps first. That will save me some time vs. swapping all caps. This is an older refurb unit, so I wonder if Insteon already replaced these once.

I'll report back on if it works or not, for those who might be interested.

- John
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shdwlynx
New Member

USA
24 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2019 :  09:49:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Insanely, a couple of days after my last post, the dimmer switch never lost power again. I did nothing physical, although perhaps I modified some scenes that were making it angry?

- John
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dennyls
Starting Member

USA
7 Posts

Posted - 05/22/2020 :  3:31:18 PM  Show Profile  Send dennyls an AOL message  Reply with Quote
I know this is an old thread, but I'll try. I have 2 old switches and one old keypad that have "died". The switches won't turn the light on or off when physically pressed, but one of them appears to work when turned on as a responder. The keypad is radom. I'll change the caps, but I can't get to the pc board. It appears a power transistor is riveted to the metal casing that holds the plastic cover in place. How do I open this up--drill out the rivet? Any suggestions?

Denny
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EVIL Teken
Advanced Member

Canada
2367 Posts

Posted - 05/22/2020 :  5:14:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dennyls

I know this is an old thread, but I'll try. I have 2 old switches and one old keypad that have "died". The switches won't turn the light on or off when physically pressed, but one of them appears to work when turned on as a responder. The keypad is radom. I'll change the caps, but I can't get to the pc board. It appears a power transistor is riveted to the metal casing that holds the plastic cover in place. How do I open this up--drill out the rivet? Any suggestions?



Hi Denny,

Yes, you will need to drill out the rivet. Once done apply heat sink material if none remain and rivet back together.

Teken . . .

Want to make a real difference? Cast your vote to make the PLM Pro a reality: http://forum.insteon.com/forum/main-category/new-insteon-device-wish-list/8221-plm-pro

Stusviews: This world is made less with out your presence. Your contributions in all things has helped inspire millions to succeed. You were a husband, teacher, mentor, a friend to all.

I will forever miss our chats, debates, and collaboration. I will not remember how you died but remember how you lived and what you left behind. The sky has another star in the Heavens where you reside but the Earth is much darker with out your light to lead the way.
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BLH
Advanced Member

6156 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2020 :  03:41:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The switches still can control the load when controlled by a remote Insteon command but the local On Off paddles do not work?

There was a time when the 2476S and 2476D switches. Would work with Insteon commands but not with the local paddles being pressed. Some both On and Off while some where On or Off only. It is the small Tact Switches being activated by the paddles going bad. They would physically click but would not turn on when activated. Some adventurous folks. Found replacements and changed them.

Yes you have to drill out the rivet to get the Triac loose. If it is stuck On or Off. Both remotely and locally. The Triac itself could be bad.

Edited by - BLH on 05/23/2020 04:46:31 AM
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dennyls
Starting Member

USA
7 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2020 :  2:33:21 PM  Show Profile  Send dennyls an AOL message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by EVIL Teken

quote:
Originally posted by dennyls

I know this is an old thread, but I'll try. I have 2 old switches and one old keypad that have "died". The switches won't turn the light on or off when physically pressed, but one of them appears to work when turned on as a responder. The keypad is radom. I'll change the caps, but I can't get to the pc board. It appears a power transistor is riveted to the metal casing that holds the plastic cover in place. How do I open this up--drill out the rivet? Any suggestions?



Hi Denny,

Yes, you will need to drill out the rivet. Once done apply heat sink material if none remain and rivet back together.



Thank you. I managed to unsolder it, but not sure I'll be able to resolder. Will drill out next time!

Denny
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dennyls
Starting Member

USA
7 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2020 :  2:34:54 PM  Show Profile  Send dennyls an AOL message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BLH

The switches still can control the load when controlled by a remote Insteon command but the local On Off paddles do not work?

There was a time when the 2476S and 2476D switches. Would work with Insteon commands but not with the local paddles being pressed. Some both On and Off while some where On or Off only. It is the small Tact Switches being activated by the paddles going bad. They would physically click but would not turn on when activated. Some adventurous folks. Found replacements and changed them.

Yes you have to drill out the rivet to get the Triac loose. If it is stuck On or Off. Both remotely and locally. The Triac itself could be bad.



Thank you! Yes, one of the switches works when it's a responder, but not with the physical paddle. The other switch is totally dead. I can get the led to light up when I push in on the "set" button, but it won't go into linking mode, nor will it turn the light on. I'll drill out the rivet and try replacing the caps. I have a new switch on order, but would like to figure out how to repair these, since I have several more that, I suspect, will go out over time. Thanks for your help!!

Denny
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BLH
Advanced Member

6156 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2020 :  3:28:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I would look at the tact switches on the one with no local control but works as a responded.
The older power line only ones and the newer Dual Band ones use different capacitors. As the Dual Band ones have a switching style power supply and if possible a capacitor designed for a switching supply [Low ESR] is best.
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