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drdigital1
Starting Member

USA
10 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2020 :  3:28:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Newbie question (the Insteon system in my house was installed by previous owner, 10 years or more ago. There is no hub and no controller)

Hall lights used to be controlled by a button in an 8-button keypad and also by an (old, no LEDs on the side) Insteon wall switch. The keypad button doesn’t turn the light on/off anymore. Other buttons in that keypad still work. After watching some youtube videos I tried to link the Insteon wall switch to a button in the keypad. Not only that I failed to link, but I disabled (reset?) the wall switch and now that lights cannot be operated AT ALL (not by the keypad and not by the wall switch). Any advice? At least, I’d like to get the wall switch functioning again.

oberkc
Moderator

USA
4129 Posts

Posted - 10/19/2020 :  6:21:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Do you know to which of these two devices is the hall lights wired? The load wire of insteon devices cannot generally be de-coupled from the switch. If the load is wired to the switch and does not come on when the switch is pressed, you either have a loose wire, a bad light fixture or bulb, or a failed switch.

So you have a way to measure voltages?
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drdigital1
Starting Member

USA
10 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2020 :  07:34:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
oberkc thanks. Your comment that "the load wire of insteon devices cannot generally be de-coupled from the switch" is important. The wiring and Insteon installation were done by the previous owner. The lights in question used to be controlled by an Insteon switch and buttons on 2 separate keypads. When the keypad buttons stopped operating the lights I tried to reprogram them using the switch (see description of my steps below) thinking that the switch controls the load. Now the switch doesn't do anything and the lights (luckily, just a hallway and not the master bedroom!) are always on. I cannot find a switch that controls the lights directly. I am a software engineers, not an electrician but I can measure voltages, remove a switch, etc. THANKS FOR YOUR HELP!
Note. This is what I've done when I messed up the switch: pressed button on keypad, pressed set up on keypad (button light flashes), pressed set up on switch (initially just a tap but the button on keypad was still not functional, and then a long press. After the long press, the switch stopped working).
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BLH
Advanced Member

6242 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2020 :  10:51:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Do you know if the original owner used the manual set button routines or a controller like a HUB or ISY994i?

What are the part numbers on the switches and keypads? Usually on a sticker on the device.

There are some Insteon devices that can be installed in the light itself or its electrical box. So it maybe possible the light you can't find a switch for. My have one of those devices.

No LED on the side of the switch? Are you sure they are Insteon and not the earlier X10 switches that look similar? The part numbers would help identify the devices.

You can find full users manuals on the Insteon web site. https://www.insteon.com/support#documentation
Older manuals site seems to be gone now. I may have them in an archive folder.
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drdigital1
Starting Member

USA
10 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2020 :  1:07:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
BLH, thank you. I don't know if the original owner "used the manual set button routines or a controller like a HUB or ISY994i". FOR SURE, there is no hub/controller in the house now.
The model of the switch is 2876DB v5.25 1038. It has 1 LED on the left side (center).
Also, the lights have no Insteon device directly connected.

Edited by - drdigital1 on 10/20/2020 1:11:20 PM
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oberkc
Moderator

USA
4129 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2020 :  2:02:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
BLH brings up an important point regarding the possibility of another insteon device that may provide power to the fixture (inlinelinc, or micromodule are most likely candidates). Such devices are often used when wiring to the original switch does not include a neutral (known as a switch loop). First order of business, in my mind, is to identify which insteon device powers the fixtures. This may require removing the fixture to inspect the electrical box underneath. If none of the switches that formerly controlled the fixture have a load connected to the red wires, then there is either another (currently undiscovered) switch somewhere that controls the fixtures, or there is a device in the fixture box. Some insteon device MUST power the fixture somewhere.

Once that device is identified, and barring a device failure, re-linking the switches should be simple enough.

Do the other buttons on the keypads continue to function normally?

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drdigital1
Starting Member

USA
10 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2020 :  2:48:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
oberkc and BLH, thank you both for helping. I'll go on the hunt again for the switch that controls the light fixtures. I assumed that it was the one I messed up but I understand that there must be something else (given that "the load wire of insteon devices cannot generally be de-coupled from the switch").
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BLH
Advanced Member

6242 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2020 :  3:36:05 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The 2876DB is an Icon Dimmer Switch. Was the slightly lower cost Insteon Module 2476DB.

Is the Red wire on the 2876DB connected to anything or is it capped off and not used. In some setups. You provided power to the 2876DB and capped off the Red Load wire. Then linked it to another Insteon or Icon module to control it. Some times it was for a three way setup. With two switches controlling one Load.

I can't find the manual online any more. If you have questions I maybe able to find it in my archived copy of the manual.
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drdigital1
Starting Member

USA
10 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2020 :  3:52:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
BLH thanks. The red wire is connected to another wire. Can it be that this is, in fact, THE switch but something happened to it when I pressed SET UP and it's no longer working? Is it worthwhile to buy a new switch and replace it? And if you recommend I do this, what switch to buy?

Edited by - drdigital1 on 10/20/2020 3:55:17 PM
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oberkc
Moderator

USA
4129 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2020 :  3:57:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The red wire on the switch is near-universally the load. If this is connected to another wire (most likely black) then I would assume for now that this switch powers the fixtures.

This wire cannot be decoupled from the switch. If you turn the switch on and the lights do not come on, then I would measure the voltage at this switch. Temporarily remove the load wire from the red wire and (carefully, I assume it does not need to be said, but did so anyhow) and measure voltage with the switch turned on. Do you measure anything. If you have a non-contact voltage detector, you might try that before you disconnect anything.

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oberkc
Moderator

USA
4129 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2020 :  4:00:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have a copy of the manual for the 2876S/SB. I assume it is near-identical to the DB, except for non-dimming.
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drdigital1
Starting Member

USA
10 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2020 :  4:05:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Let me know if my thinking below is correct:
If this is NOT the switch that controls the load (light fixtures) then by disconnecting the red wire the lights should stay on.
But if this IS the switch that controls the load (light fixtures) then by disconnecting the red wire the lights would go off and I need then to replace the switch.
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drdigital1
Starting Member

USA
10 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2020 :  4:24:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just did the following experiment:
Currently the lights are always on.
With the red wire disconnected, the lights are off. Does this prove that this IS the switch that controls the load (light fixtures), that it is bad and that and I need to replace it?
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drdigital1
Starting Member

USA
10 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2020 :  4:32:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
UPDATE: I didn't check this right away but.....the switch is now turning the lights on and off! It must be that when I turned off the power using the circuit breaker something got reset. So I will try again to program the keypad button. Hopefully, I won't mess up the switch again.

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drdigital1
Starting Member

USA
10 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2020 :  4:44:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I want to make sure I program the keypad button correctly. Do you mind confirming that the procedure I plan to follow (see below) is correct?

1. Tap the Keypad button of choice
2. Press and hold Keypad’s Set button until Keypad beeps
Keypad button will blink and the Set button LED will blink green
Keypad button is in link mode
3. Turn lights on with the switch
4. Press and hold the switch Set button until it double-beeps (or until its LED/load flashes)
Keypad will double-beep and its button and Set button LEDs will stop blinking
The switch LED will stop blinking and it may double-beep
5. Confirm that the addition was successful by tapping on/off on the Keypad button

Edited by - drdigital1 on 10/20/2020 4:44:39 PM
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oberkc
Moderator

USA
4129 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2020 :  4:49:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It has been close to 12 years since I linked things manually, but this sounds about right. You will have to do more, however, but first determine if this works.

Conceptually, you need to make the keypad button controller and switch as responder. These steps you describe match the user manual instructions, as near as I can tell. Hopefully, this will work for you. If so, you will likely need to also make the switch a controller for the keypad. (This assumes that you also want the button to turn on when you activate the switch.)
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drdigital1
Starting Member

USA
10 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2020 :  5:55:40 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hallelujah! oberkc and BLH, thank you so much! Everything is now working as before. Whatever happed to the switch was corrected by disconnecting the load and flipping the circuit breaker on/off. Like powering on and off a frozen electronic device/computer.
Thanks again!
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BLH
Advanced Member

6242 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2020 :  03:05:44 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The AC power cycle reset. Reset the module and it sounds like it was in a strange state.

The Set Button also has an Air Gap switch. When you gently pull the Set Button out. It disconnects the AC Line input from the electronics. I believe a safety measure. Wait maybe ten seconds and then push it in flush. Will also do a power cycle reset. Now if you go all the way in past the normal position. You do a Factory Reset and all the modules programming is removed.
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jetfulfilled
Junior Member

Philippines
30 Posts

Posted - 11/19/2020 :  04:14:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
@oberkc is such a genius!

jetfulfilled
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